The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. As we begin this afternoon, we are all painfully aware of the sudden loss suffered by the First Minister over the weekend, and, on behalf of us all, I wish to extend our condolences to him and his family.

It’s little understood by people outside this Chamber, but often what pains one of us can pain all of us. In this case, what pains the First Minister has touched many people throughout Wales. When the news broke on Saturday, the first asking for her condolences to be passed on to the First Minister, messaging me,was a nurse in Bronglais.
Mark and his family are in our hearts and prayers this afternoon. Many will have known Clare well. We will rise now to remember Clare, and in love and support for our First Minister and his family.

A minute's silence was held.

Diolch. The Trefnydd will be answering questions on behalf of the First Minister this afternoon, and I ask the Trefnydd to say a few words.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you all for that moment of reflection in memory of Clare Drakefordand in recognition of her life. I know the thoughts of everyone in the Senedd, and across Wales, are with our First Minister and his family at this very sad time, which I know he will greatly appreciate.

I thank the Trenydd for that.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first question this afternoon is from Buffy Williams.

Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Strategy

Buffy Williams MS: 1. What discussions has the First Minister had with the Minister for Social Justice regarding the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy since it was announced last year? OQ59068

Lesley Griffiths AC: Only united action from all sections of society can end abuse and ensure that everyone in Wales can truly live fear free. Our national VAWDASV strategy sets out our aims, and the Minister for Social Justice will continue to work closely with all Cabinet colleagues to ensure it is delivered.

Buffy Williams MS: Diolch, Trefnydd. The violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy is, to me, one of the most important pieces of work the Welsh Government has announced this term, especially for my communities in Rhondda. Shockingly, the number of incidents of domestic violence and abuse reported to South Wales Police in Rhondda is, more often than not, double that of Cynon, Tafand Merthyr combined. We also know that these figures increase on the days of rugby internationals.With the start of the six nations, I'm campaigning, in February, with partners, to raise awareness of what local and national support is available to victims and perpetrators. I know that the support is available thanks to the strategy, but we need people to be accessing it.Trefnydd, since the strategy's announcement, what work has been done to ensure people know where and how they can access support? And are we still able to fund services fully during the current financial climate?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as Buffy Williams has outlined, in Wales, we know that too many people still experience domestic abuse and sexual violence, and our strategy absolutely puts prevention at its core, shifting the focus from symptom to cause through a public health approach. Buffy Williams referred to our groundbreaking Act back in 2015, and that created duties on local authorities and health boards in Wales to publish and implement strategies for addressing these issues in our local communities, and that really ensures that tackling violence against women and girls is prioritised right across Wales.
You mentioned the upcoming six nations campaign, and, through our Live Fear Free campaigns, that is a time that we do publicise those more. And we will continue to raise awareness of stalking, of harassment, of abuse and violence against women in all aspects of life, and that includes the street and other public places. And what these campaigns really do is provide practical advice for those who may be suffering abuse, but, as well as highlighting the support that's available to enable friends and family, and the wider community, to recognise abuse and take safe action, and signposting for people who perpetrate, who are themselves concerned about their behaviour.The Welsh Government does continue to fund regional advisers and specialist services, including the 24/7 Live Fear Free helpline. That supports victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence, and works tirelessly to ensure that no victim falls through the gaps of service provision, and especially those at higher risk. And we welcome long-term collaboration and partnership working between the services, and also the criminal justice services, really working together to deal with the complexities of the trauma that can be experienced.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, in a written statement dated 19 January on women's safety in public places in Wales, the Minister for Social Justice referred to the Welsh Government's violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence national strategy. The Minister said that the strategy will be delivered through a collaborative
'"blueprint approach" alongside a group of key partner organisations including the police and specialist sector.'
One of these blueprint work streams is street harassment and safety in public places, providing a focus and expertise for an innovative approach to these issues. Currently in Newport—an area that I represent in South Wales East—every other LED light in the city gets turned off from midnight until 6 a.m. in the morning. However, Newport's Labour council is considering switching off all 19,000 lights, except at 'safety-critical sites', overnight, in a bid to cut costs. Furthermore, since late 2019, street lights across Caerphilly county borough have been switched off each night between midnight and 5.30 a.m. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that turning off street lights at night is in direct conflict with the aims of your Government's strategy to help women and girls feel safe on our streets? And will you take up this matter with the local authorities concerned, going forward? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I think we have to recognise the very difficult position that our local authorities are in, in trying to save money, even with the budgets that we've been able to give them from Welsh Government. But, as you say, the Minister for Social Justice did make a statement, following a request—I think it was from Delyth Jewell—in the business statement, because the Minister for Social Justice absolutely recognises that it's really important how women and children—well, everybody—feel safe, particularly on our streets. You mentioned the blueprint, and that works very closely not just with our partners here in Wales, but also non-devolved organisations. As part of that structure, the Minister for Social Justice chairs the national partnership board, with Dafydd Llywelyn, who's the lead police and crime commissioner here in Wales. It's something that I'm sure the board will look at, to see what support they can give local authorities, but, as I say, we do have to recognise the position of our local authorities from a financial position.

Joyce Watson AC: The scope of the strategy was extended to include workplace harassment, because, as it says, women's safety can only come from change in a culture that fails to tackle toxic masculinity. Unfortunately, we've seen numerous examples of that culture in various organisations in recent weeks. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that trade unions are key to holding workplaces to account, and making sure that bosses are doing everything they can to prevent sexual harassment? We need good men in the room and employers to look at systems and procedures that enable and facilitate safe challenges. And would you join with me in welcoming the work that Wales TUC has done with Welsh Women's Aid to develop a toolkit, which I'll be launching here in March, that will help union reps to carry out that work?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. And thank you to Joyce Watson for bringing the workplace sexual harassment toolkit to our attention today. I think it will be an extremely useful tool, once it has been launched, and it has been developed jointly with Welsh Women's Aid and Wales TUC. And it's very much in alignment with our aim to, obviously, ensure that workplaces are safe for employees, but also to ensure that employers have the tools that they need to deal with any breaches when they do happen. The Welsh Government has a long history of working with Welsh Women's Aid, and I think that this toolkit is another example of their passion and devotion to make sure that we do eradicate violence against women and girls. And I know that the Minister for Social Justice is very welcoming of the toolkit also.

Economic Renewal

Rhianon Passmore AC: 2. What is the Welsh Government doing to aid post-pandemic economic renewal in Islwyn? OQ59069

Lesley Griffiths AC: Our economic mission sets out Welsh Government's economic priorities. We are strengthening the sectors across the Welsh economy by focusing on support for firms to innovate and diversify, speeding up business decarbonisation, and investing in climate-resilient infrastructure.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Trefnydd. Thank you. A popular independent cafe, called Marmajo's, had premises on Pen-y-fan industrial estate in Crumlin until it very recently closed, and the owner, Charlie Allcock, reluctantly made a really hard decision, after watching her energy bills triple, to almost £1,800 a month. Also, in Pontllanfraith, the Islwyn bowls club reopened following the pandemic restrictions, but the bar and function room have also remained closed as the local authority seeks someone to take it over, and the commercial side of the club needs to be secured in the future. And in Blackwood, HSBC have announced their intention to close their branch in July this year. So, in communities throughout Islwyn, the consequences of 13 long, cold years of Tory austerity and the pandemic, and now the Tory cost-of-living crisis, are removing or endangering the important fabric of community life. Trefnydd, the people of Islwyn are grateful for their Welsh Labour Government that seeks, within its devolved functions and within its strict financial envelope, to encourage economic activity. One such area of Welsh Government activity has been in the creative arts. Executives of Netflix last week told the Welsh Affairs Select Committee that their shows, such asSex Education, which saw filming in Newbridge town centre and across Gwent, contributed £200 million to the Welsh economy over the last five years. What other imaginative avenues, Trefnydd, are open to the Welsh Government to seek to bring life and energy into Islwyn's economic life?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I'm very sorry to hear about the businesses and organisations in your constituency that have had to unfortunately close. As you know, here in Wales, we have Business Wales, and that's just about to celebrate its tenth anniversary, and they've provided a single integrated service to support businesses through these very difficult and uncertain economic times. That includes during the pandemic, as we left the European Union, and obviously the current cost-of-business crisis. Nearly 32,000 businesses were supported through the economic resilience fund during the pandemic, and direct support is available for businesses who continue to face uncertainties due to the cost-of-living crisis, the business crisis and, of course, the recession. There are many businesses in your constituency that have received support and, as you know, we've recently rolled out the business productivity enhancement programme. That's aimed at supporting SME manufacturing businesses also.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, for people in Islwyn, since 2019, they have experienced a real-terms increase of just £2.59 in their weekly earnings. Clearly, this isn't enough to keep pace with inflation, and the only way to combat this in Wales is by truly supporting our private sector and making Wales a more attractive place to invest in so they can employ more people on better wages. Clearly, this isn't happening at the moment, with Wales having seen the biggest fall in employment in the UK over the last years. Business Minister, how do you intent to curb this worrying trend?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I disagree with the Member profoundly that Wales isn't an attractive place to do business and to bring new businesses. I think you just need to look at our track record and also the work the Development Bank of Wales has done. I mentioned the business productivity enhancement programme that's recently been rolled out that's attracting new businesses. Again, the number of jobs that have been created just in the last two years in Rhianon Passmore's constituency totalled 621 jobs, with 220 new-start businesses, and has provided dedicated support to 1,102 businesses in Caerphilly.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Before I start, with your permission, Presiding Officer, I'd like to identify with the comments you and the Trefnydd put on the record in relation to the shattering news of the First Minister's loss of his wife over the weekend. Having met Clare on several occasions in my role as leader here and as an MS as well, I realise what a kind and compassionate individual she was and how dedicated they both were to each other. I hope very much that the sentiments that everyone is expressing is a form of comfort, and I use the word 'form' of comfort because nothing will ever make up for the loss of your partner in life. I extend the Welsh Conservatives' sympathies, prayers and best wishes to the family of the First Minister and to the First Minister himself.
Trefnydd, in your previous role as building Minister and planning Minister, you'll be well aware of the issues around building safety here in Wales. There was much speculation and talk in the press on the weekend in relation to the remedial measures that have been put in place across the United Kingdom, but in particular here in Wales. Through the Building Safety Act 2022 that has passed in Westminster, there are measures to make sure that people who live in what are known as 'orphan buildings', which are buildings that have been built by companies that have been collapsed once the project has been finished, can be restored and the liabilities picked up by the companies. Will you, as a Government, pick up those measures and incorporate them into Welsh law here, so that residents who find themselves in similar buildings can have those protections? I notice that Mike Hedges was raising this very issue with you in business questions only two weeks ago.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, as is the case in England, the Minister works very closely with developers, for instance, and I know, around the developers' pact, the Minister's been doing that. She's also kept Members updated, so I appreciate that you will already have that information as well. The Minister is obviously working closely with the UK Government to see what aspects of the legislation we can look at, and I'm sure that she will keep us updated.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, it has been some years now, obviously, since the Grenfell tragedy. The inquiry into the Grenfell tragedy has concluded its work, and we await its report. As I said, in the UK Parliament, the legislation has been passed to give comfort to residents who live in these orphan buildings—there is one literally just up the road from here—who find themselves in the horrendous situation of not knowing whether they will get the remediation works undertaken, and they are living in properties that are unsaleable now and in fear of their lives basically, because of the fire activities that could potentially go on in those buildings. I would hope that I could have achieved a more substantial answer from you, given the time lapse since the tragedy of the Grenfell fire, but I implore you and the Government to take those measures on board to give confidence to those residents that they will get restitution in place to fix the damages.
But another thing that was spoken about by the UK Minister, Michael Gove, was that, where companies refuse to honour their commitments to remedy these buildings, they would put into law the ability to stop those companies being able to work, build future buildings, in those localities. Will the Welsh Government give urgent consideration to adopting such measures here, to strengthen your arm when you are negotiating with these companies, so that—if they couldn't build in the past to a good standard, what confidence can we have that they will build in the future to a good standard? And we need that legislative change here to give the Minister the ability to go into those negotiations and stop these companies doing what they did previously.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, in relation to the first part of your question around remediation, I know the Minister has been working very hard to make sure that there is a programme of work that can be outlined, so that people do get that confidence, because I can imagine nothing worse than owning a home and knowing of the potential disaster that could befall it. And I know the Minister also is working very closely, as I say, with the UK Government, and has been having discussions with Michael Gove around that protection, as you referred to it, with developers who do not consider the requirements that will be needed from them, when they build in the future. So, yes, the short answer to your question is 'yes'.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that. I'm pleased to hear that, and I'm sure residents and action groups across Wales, who are affected by this will be pleased as well to hear that response. A word that hasn't been used by the Welsh Government, but, on Sunday, was used by the UK Government, was to apologise for the shortcomings in the building regulation environments that allowed these buildings to be put up in the first place, and, ultimately, end up in the situation we are in at the moment. Given the position that you occupy within the Government, will you apologise today, similar to how the UK Government apologised on the weekend, via Michael Gove? Because, whilst it won't put the buildings right, it will give a huge amount of comfort to those individuals and residents who find themselves on the wrong end of this situation through no fault of their own.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, of course, we are very sorry that anybody finds themselves living with those concerns. But, as I say, it was really important that we took a step back and looked at what work could be done, and, as I say, the Minister does have a programme of work to assist with these people.

The leader of Plaid Cymru—Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I, on behalf of the Plaid Cymry group in the Senedd, but also on behalf of the party more broadly, extend our sincerest condolences to the First Minister on his bereavement? It is a blow that's difficult to comprehend, if truth be told, and we want to ensure that he is aware how much support we wish to give him during this most difficult period, and that, as has been said already, is broadly shared. I was in the Melin Drafod conference over the weekend, and people there had felt the blow of this loss and the anguish that the First Minister faces.

Adam Price AC: The Welsh Government has formally commenced the NHS pay-round process for 2023-24 by sending a remit letter to the NHS pay review body. The Welsh Government's evidence to the pay review body, along with the letter, was sent on the same day, 11 January, that the health unions said that they were no longer prepared to engage with a review body process that they no longer trusted, calling instead for direct negotiations with the Government for next year. Why, effectively, begin a new dispute with the unions over next year's pay even before this year's pay dispute is resolved? How is that going to rebuild the trust of the workforce?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you know, the Minister for Health and Social Services continues to engage with trade unions. I know that her officials have met with the trade unions today and I think they're planning to meet again next week. We want to keep our door open; we want to continue to have discussions to, obviously, support our NHS staff. As you said, the Minister now is looking to the next year, because in the process, you have to do that. But, I think what is really important is that, unlike England, we have kept that engagement with our trade unions to ensure that they do feel listened to.
Also, I should just say that across the Welsh Government, every Minister is looking at what more funding we can bring forward—we're looking at our underspends and we're looking at our reserves—to try to put more money into that pot of money that we want to give not just to our NHS staff, but to our teachers and public service workers. If that happens, we won't be able to do other things. So, I don't want to underestimate the work that we are doing, as a Welsh Government, to try to bring a resolution to this.

Adam Price AC: You say that you've taken a different approach to the UK Government, but the remit letter that you've sent mirrors that of the UK Government exactly in emphasising affordability. You also define what affordability means—the amount that you, as a Government, can afford to pay—because you say in the letter:
'In the absence of increased UK Government funding, any changes to NHS staff’s terms and conditions will need to come from existing budgets.'
The problem is that that isn't true, as you could increase income taxes, which would mean that you could afford a fairer pay offer. Why didn't you include that option for the pay review body to consider, if this is a genuinely independent process?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, unfortunately, even just a 1 per cent increase would only bring forward—I think it was about £55 million, which, clearly, is nowhere near enough money for what we need. What we need is an increase in our budget. You will know all of the difficulties—from being in the co-operation agreement, you will know all of the facts and figures around our budget. We know that we need further funding from the UK Government to enable us to meet not just our NHS workforce pay demands but others.
We understand why people who've probably never, ever gone on strike before feel the need to do so, because after a decade of austerity, and we've now got the cost-of-living crisis, we've got predictions of further inflation and predictions of a recession, we absolutely understand the concerns of our workforce about their standards of living—they believe they might be eroded or are being eroded. So, we made it clear that, without additional funding from the UK Government, there are limits to how far we can go. But, the suggestion you have would not bring forward the amount of funding we need.

Adam Price AC: I think the Trefnydd may have misspoken here, because a 1 per cent increase, according to your own figures, in the income tax level at each band would raise £273 million. What you're referring to—the £55 million—is a 1 per cent increase in the NHS pay bill. So, actually, using your income tax powers, you could achieve a significantly higher pay offer than the one you're currently offering.
Now, in your evidence to the pay review body, you report NHS staff vacancies up from 1,925 in the summer of 2020 to 3,305 two years later—an increase of over 70 per cent. And even that, you admit, is an underestimate of the true figure. Agency spending, you confirm, has more than trebled over the last seven years to an all-time high of £271 million, equivalent to more than 5 per cent of the total NHS pay bill. From June 2021 to June 2022, sickness rates in the NHS, according to your own evidence, have risen from 5.7 per cent of all staff to 7.1 per cent. Meanwhile the proportion of nurses and midwives leaving the NHS has risen from 6.5 per cent to 7.6 per cent. Vacancies up, sickness rates up, agency spending up, leaving rates up. The only thing going down, Trefnydd, is the morale of the staff and their trust in this Labour Government. What is your plan to turn this situation around?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the figures I have in front of me around NHS workforce statistics—and this is directly employed staff—is that the workforce is now at record levels. We've got over 105,000 people, 90,943 full-time equivalents, being directly employed by our NHS Wales organisations. All the staff—you go through nurses, you go through medical and dental staff, consultants, registered nurses, registered midwives, scientific, therapeutic, technical staff—I could go on—all the therapists, they're all up over the last three years. I have all the figures in front of me.
We're working very hard to recruit. With my MS hat on, I met the acting chief executive of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board last Friday and listened to what they're doing as a health board to try and attract more staff. A lot of nursing staff in particular put their retirement plans on hold, for instance, when the pandemic struck us, and now, we are seeing more people wanting to take those retirement plans forward. So, it was good to hear from that particular health board of the plans they are taking. You'll be aware of the medical school that we are having in north Wales—so, up in north Wales, there's a great deal of work being done to attract new staff. But it is important that we look internationally as well, as long as it's ethically correct to recruit staff there, and again, I know that health boards are doing that, also.

Extremist Views Amongst Young People

Altaf Hussain AS: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle extremist views amongst young people? OQ59064

Lesley Griffiths AC: Working in partnership with counter-terrorism policing, we have produced videos and resources on preventing radicalisation and extremism, delivered in schools by our SchoolBeat officers. Our Prevent board brings partners together to oversee activities in Wales designed to protect those who are most vulnerable to radicalisation.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. I was really disturbed to read the comments of Detective Superintendent Gareth Rees, the right-wing terrorism lead at counter-terrorism policing, who said that there has been an incredibly alarming rise in teenagers involved with neo-Nazi groups and far-right extremism. His comments came following the conviction of a Cardiff man for belonging to a banned far-right group and recruiting others to the cause. Another British teenager was also convicted in the past few days for recruiting and inciting US teenagers to commit terrorist attacks in the USA. Minister, I am sure that you will agree that this rise in far-right hatred among our young people is extremely concerning. How are the Welsh Government working with partner agencies to prevent the radicalisation of young teenage boys?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I certainly would agree with the Member that it is very concerning, and the sentencing of the young person from Cardiff that you referred to—it was a range of offences, including offences under terror legislation. What that does is really serve us all as a reminder that extremism is a very, very real issue right across the UK.
Obviously, our education sector plays a hugely important role in safeguarding our young people through providing counter-narratives, support and engaging with counter-terrorism policing in the relevant authorities when necessary. We have our Wales police schools programme—that's been supported by Welsh Government, I think, now for nearly 20 years, and we invest just under £2 million each year, and match funding's also provided by police forces right across Wales. Counter-terrorism policing provide routine briefings to all our school liaison officers to enable them to provide inputs across Wales.
I mentioned the important role of education, but also, I think our best chance of protecting those who are most vulnerable to radicalisation is to adopt a whole-system approach, and that does include front-line staff in our health services and also in our local government services.

Food Security

Jenny Rathbone AC: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to strengthen food security in Wales? OQ59061

Lesley Griffiths AC: The food system operates on a UK-wide basis. The Welsh Government therefore works with the UK Government and devolved administrations to identify risks and engages with stakeholders to manage them. In Wales, we promote food security through investment in the food manufacturing industry, supporting agriculture, and providing significant support to a wide variety of community projects.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Trefnydd. You won't be surprised to know that I am focusing on our food and vegetable supplies. I'm acutely aware that only twice in the last three months have I been able to obtain the boxes of fruit and vegetables that I want to give to our local food bank. That reflects the lack of affordable food that is reaching the wholesale market, on which all the independent retailers, corner shops, convenience stores and a lot of the hospitality sector rely on. I appreciate that the supermarkets have their own networks. Next to none of the food coming into the wholesale market is grown in Wales. Now, I fully appreciate the work that you, Minister, have done as the Minister for rural affairs to try and expand the horticulture sector in Wales, but it really isn't enough. And given the significant loss of public money to the foundational economy, and the major implications it has for our ambitious universal free school meals programme, with a third of a child's meal needing to be vegetables and fruit to enable them to grow and learn, in light of these budgetary and policy implications for all your Ministers on the front benches, with the exception of the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, how does the Government plan to address this strategically significant issue?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As I said, food supply is really wholly integrated across the UK. We've got very diverse international supply chains as well for both imports and exports. I don't think there is a general shortage of fruit and vegetables. They're widely available. So, I don't think there is a risk to either the free school meals policy or public health. We are trying to tackle this issue. You mentioned the work I've been doing in relation to horticulture. I'm told that horticulture is an area where we want to really see an expansion of the agricultural sector, and I'm using rural development programme funding, for instance, to have new windows for people to apply for funding in relation to doing more around horticulture and growing fruit and vegetables.
We do need to continue to engage in discussions with UK Government and other devolved Governments, as I say, around the agri-food supply chain. And I do it as a Minister—officials certainly do it, but I do it as a Minister. I meet with a range of partners—farmers, processors, manufacturers, retailers—to get the information that we need. We keep that under constant review to make sure there is no shortage of fruit and veg.

Samuel Kurtz MS: The Minister has previously touched upon her community food strategy, a matter that we've discussed in committee. Now, we're still waiting for the strategy's development, and, as it stands, it has no real depth or foundation. I note that Jenny Rathbone's commendable desires align perfectly with Peter Fox's Food (Wales) Bill, which is currently making its way through the legislative process. As Peter has previously highlighted in the Chamber and at committee, it creates the perfect environment for which Jenny Rathbone's vision for food security can become reality. Minister, you've stated that the funding for your community food strategy has been ring-fenced, yet its implementation is delayed. So, given this, when can we expect this strategy to be presented? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the community food strategy is a manifesto commitment on which I stood. We're bringing forward the community food strategy as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and, obviously, we have five years to bring that strategy forward and it will be brought forward in this term of the Senedd. You mentioned Peter Fox's food Bill. I have to say that food Bill is taking up probably all of my resources at an official level that could be working on the community food strategy. I disagree with you about Peter Fox's Bill being the perfect environment, and Peter and I have had discussions. I gave evidence to committee last week on it, and I know we've both got some more scrutiny sessions coming up. I think a lot of what Peter Fox is bringing forward in his food Bill can already be delivered with current policies and legislation that we have at the current time. I'm very worried, for instance, about the commission that Peter Fox is proposing in his Bill. I think it will cost a significant amount of money and will also go across the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. I think what Peter has done is try to put the Scottish model, if you like, and their food Bill into—which, if you say it's round, here in Wales our framework is square and it's very difficult not to cut across the well-being of future generations Act.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It's crucial for food security that we promote and protect production of food, but also the processing of food. And I'm very grateful to the Minister, in her role as Minister for rural affairs and food, along with the Minister for Economy, for agreeing to meet with me later today to discuss the urgent actions required in light of the announcement of the consultation on the closure of the 2 Sisters Food Group plant in Llangefni. We need urgent steps. I am clear that steps need to be taken by the UK Government too, and it's frightening to see, from Westminster today, that the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury didn't even know that there were 700 jobs under threat in Llangefni, which shows that Anglesey has been ignored there over the last week. But does the Minister agree with me that we need to ensure all means possible of bringing investment now into food production in Anglesey, to help existing businesses to grow, and also the kind of investment that I've been pushing for, for a food production park, in order to ensure that this sector gets the boost that it needs? This is a strength of ours that we can build on in Anglesey.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, in relation to the last part of your question, I absolutely agree, and I think we've had some very productive discussions around that to see what we can do. Certainly, the announcement on the closure—or the proposed closure—of the 2 Sisters poultry plant in Llangefni was devastating, and is devastating for your constituency. It was completely unexpected. We had no prior knowledge of it. I don't think there had been any attempt to contact Welsh Government at all before the announcement was made, which I think was very disappointing, particularly following the support we'd given them and the work we'd done with them, particularly during the COVID pandemic. So, it did catch us completely unawares; we had absolutely no idea. I know the Minister for Economy and I, we met, and then we had a meeting with the leader of Ynys Môn council; I think there's another one planned. Because I think it is right that we all need to work together, and we certainly need the UK Government to sit up and take notice of this. But we'll be very happy, obviously, to follow up further discussions with you later this afternoon.

Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Llywydd. And I understand that, with your permission, as leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, and joining with the two other leaders, of Plaid Cymru and of the Conservatives, we would like to extend our deepest sympathies to the First Minister and his family. Losing someone so close is so hard, and our love and prayers are with him. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Turning to the issue of food security, another aspect is around supporting our farmers to produce food. Some of us were lucky enough to be, last night, with National Farmers UnionCymru, and I know many of us have enjoyed and endured the wonderful Farmers Union of Walesbreakfasts that were last week as well. Some of those maybe more than once, and perhaps more than was good for us, shall we say, but, nevertheless, it was focusing on Welsh food. And I know, with the agriculture Bill coming up, I would just like to ask you, if I may, in your role as well: what measures are you taking to look at domestic food production in terms of securing that and enhancing that? Because farmers are producers of food first and foremost. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely. If you ask anybody, 'What do farmers do?', that's the first thing they will say, 'They produce our food.' And Jane Dodds will know at the heart of the Bill lies the objective to ensure the sustainability of our farms and recognises the complementary objectives of supporting farmers in the sustainable production of food, and that's alongside the response to the climate and nature emergencies. The sole purpose of the agriculture Bill and, obviously, the sustainable farming scheme, which are being produced side by side, is to ensure that our farmers remain on the land and that that land is there for future generations.

Medical Specialist Services

John Griffiths AC: 5. What is the Welsh Government's strategy to further develop medical specialist services across Wales? OQ59055

Lesley Griffiths AC: Welsh Government has set out its expectations in a series of quality statements that describe what good clinical services look like. We're also investing in the NHS workforce in Wales by increasing training places for many healthcare professionals.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Two weeks ago, I met with one of my younger constituents, Elliot, and his mum, Lucy. They are both here in the Senedd today in the public gallery watching proceedings. Elliot is five years old and suffers from a rare condition called Duchenne muscular dystrophy, a genetic disorder characterised by the progressive loss of muscle. As part of his treatment, Minister, Lucy is very keen that Elliot has the opportunity to access clinical trials. At present, there is no capacity in Wales to run such clinical trials. There is no neuromuscular specialist in south Wales. Trials are taking place in the north of England, but it is often children in that part of the country that benefit, due to the logistics of travel and treatment and other factors. Minister, Lucy is working hard to help raise awareness of this condition and the need for more research and better treatment. So, how might Welsh Government work with Lucy to help Elliot, and, indeed, to support other families and young people in Wales with this condition?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It's lovely to see Lucy and Elliot up in the public gallery. I do hope Elliot is getting the care he needs and that we do see progress of development of treatments in this area. Health and Care Research Wales have appointed a Health and Care Research Wales speciality lead for neurology and neurodegenerativediseases, and that's to enable studies to be opened across a range of neurological and neurodegenerative diseases. Participating in research trials can provide access to care and treatment that may not be available otherwise, so I can absolutely understand why Lucy wants Elliot to be able to contribute to and take part in clinical trials. If these research trials aren't available in Wales, Health and Care Research Wales can facilitate patient access to trials in other parts of the UK. What I think would be beneficial would be for Lucy to meet with Health and Care Research Wales to discuss those issues and her concerns.

Question 6 [OQ59058] is withdrawn. Question 7—Sarah Murphy.

Reducing NHS Waiting Times

Sarah Murphy AS: 7. How is the Welsh Government using digital technology to reduce NHS waiting times for patients across Bridgend? OQ59062

Lesley Griffiths AC: Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, as with other health boards in Wales, is adopting and using modern technology across all its sites, including Bridgend, to see and support patients in the most appropriate way.

Sarah Murphy AS: So, some good news: I'm very proud and pleased to say that the trauma and orthopaedic department at the Princess of Wales Hospital at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board won a MediWales innovation award at the end of 2022 in the NHS Wales 'working with industry' award category. The award was won by mymobility, which is a healthcare digital application that patients download to their smartphones, and then it sends them customisable prehabilitation and post-surgery rehabilitation videos and guides where people have hip and knee replacements.
Not only did our Bridgend Princess of Wales Hospital team win the award, but mymobility is part of a global medical tech leader, Zimmer Biomet, which has its medical supply factory also in Bridgend and provides skilled, fair work, unionised jobs for the constituents across my community, as well as Huw Irranca-Davies's Ogmore constituency. Also, I wanted to say 'thank' you to our health Minister, who visited them with us last year. Dr Kotwal, who is the consultant orthopaedic surgeon who led the project, said that patient feedback has been 'fantastic'.
'We have patients...some in their 80s, who are using the app and absolutely loving it.'
The app also reduces the footfall in the hospital and telephone calls, because they can just communicate using the app, and they want to expand it to shoulder surgeries. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government evaluating good practice initiatives like mymobility, and expanding across Wales to reduce waiting lists and increase capacity? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'd like to congratulate Cwm Taf on the winning of their award. There are a number of similar digital services available in the marketplace, and I know that health boards are working with a number of providers to understand how they can affect service delivery, and that does include a tool that's been trialled under the small business research initiative, which is hosted by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and funded by Welsh Government across three health boards and across a number of clinical specialities. We absolutely recognise the value that these digital services can offer in transforming planned care for our patients, and that, obviously, also contributes to our goal of care closer to home.
I think what is really important is that the digital tools that we do adopt are leveraged on an all-Wales basis, so that they're able to securely exchange data. I think data sharing is so important across our health services here in Wales. We don't want data to be locked away and not shared, so I think it's really important that that data is accessible, going forward. We also need to ensure that patient-facing services are accessible via a single route, and that's the NHS Wales app, otherwise there is a risk—I didn't know there was such a thing—of app fog, when you have too many applications, each for a different purpose.

Ambulance Workers

Delyth Jewell AC: 8. What support is the Welsh Government providing to ambulance workers in South Wales East? OQ59065

Lesley Griffiths AC: We continue to invest in our NHS workforce to improve experience for patients and staff, including additional funding for extra training places for paramedics and a range of other health professions in 2023-24. This is the ninth consecutive year that health professional education and training budgets have increased in Wales.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Trefnydd. Last week, I was proud to stand on the picket line with ambulance workers in Merthyr Tydfil. None of those paramedics and ambulance workers wanted to be on strike—they wanted to be working, because their lives revolve around saving other people's lives. But they felt they had no choice because their pay is going down and the pressure is going up. But, away from pay and conditions, they talked to me about mental health strain, how trauma has become commonplace for them, seeing people dying, and witnessing other people's distress and pain and grief, day in and day out. I was really concerned to hear that the trauma risk management support isn't always enough. One of the paramedics described a truly awful thing that had happened to them on their shift, which involved someone dying, and they somehow didn't qualify for that trauma support. So, could the Welsh Government look urgently again at the support that's offered to the people whose job it is to support us in our most desperate hour of need? How can we make sure that we're giving enough help to the helpers?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You raise a very important point. If we think about it, paramedics are often, or usually, the first on the scene when that 999 call is made, and I absolutely understand the point you make. I'm sure the Minister for Health and Social Services will be very happy to look at what more we can do.

And finally, question 9, Rhys ab Owen.

Levelling-up Funds

Rhys ab Owen AS: 9. What discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government following the announcement of levelling-up funds for railways in Cardiff? OQ59036

Lesley Griffiths AC: We support this development in Cardiff and are matching the UK Government's investment. However, Welsh Government was not involved in the development of the levelling-up fund and has had no role in its strategy or delivery.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Trefnydd. The public transport expert, Mark Barry, said recently that the £50 million contribution towards the Cardiff cross-rail is only a drop in the water of the £500 million that is needed for the cross-rail to go from Cardiff Bay to Llantrisant. It also doesn't help with the inadequacy of the service—not having four trains per hour from half of the Cardiff stations because of the lack of infrastructure. As you know, Minister, Transport for Wales delivers those services, but of course they're constrained by the infrastructure, by Network Rail. It's clear, even with my friends, my colleagues from the Welsh Conservatives, that Wales is losing out when it comes to rail infrastructure. Can the Welsh Government, please, request from the UK Government the provision of adequate funds for the completion of the cross-rail from Cardiff Bay to Llantrisant and the funding needed to increase the level of services that is needed in all stations in Cardiff? Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: You're quite right, the funding is only the first phase, really, of Cardiff’s cross-rail ambition. So, as a Government, we will continue to work with Cardiff Council and Transport for Wales. You'll know that Welsh Government has repeatedly called on the UK Government to address the historic underinvestment in rail infrastructure in all parts of Wales. As a Government, we are very happy to be continuing to work with Transport for Wales. Just last Thursday, in my role as Minister for north Wales, I was very happy to launch the first of the new class 197 trains in Llandudno, again supported by £80 million of Welsh Government funding, and these trains will be rolled out right across Wales over the next 18 months.

Thank you, Trefnydd, on behalf of the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item will be the business statement, and the Trefnydd, once again, will be presenting this item. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, last Friday was Holocaust Memorial Day, and it was my honour to be able to welcome to the Senedd last week, along with many other colleagues, Hedi Argent, who of course is a Holocaust survivor, to the Senedd, who shared her experiences with us. As you may well be aware, the Combat Antisemitism Movement's 2022 International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition report has been published, and it looked at 1,116 entities, including 39 countries and 464 regional states and local government bodies. Here in the UK, it recorded that there were 150 reports of antisemitic incidents affecting Jewish students, academics, university staff and student bodies across the UK during 2021 and 2022. So, it's very alarming, Trefnydd, that there are universities here in Wales that are yet to adopt the IHRA working definition of antisemitism. Minister, I'd be very grateful for a statement from the Welsh Government Minister responsible for education, to make it absolutely and abundantly clear that no university or other place of education in Wales should receive any further Welsh Government funding, any taxpayer funding whatsoever, unless they adopt the IHRA working definition. Will you confirm that a statement will be forthcoming?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm sure many of us commemorated Holocaust Memorial Day. I was very fortunate to have the Minister for Social Justice in my constituency, and we attended an event together. On the point you raised, the Welsh Government has adopted the definition of IHRA as a working definition, as you're aware, and it is a matter for each university to then adopt it. I know that the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language has had those discussions with them.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like a statement, please, outlining what urgent conversations have been held between the Welsh and UK Governments about the support available to desperate people who are unable to afford their energy bills. We're living in a time of obscene extremes. Last week, it was reported that oil giants like BP and Shell are making profits of £5,000 a second, at a time when millions are in misery, already unable to heat their homes, because staying alive has become a crisis. The cost of living is almost unmanageable. Climate Cymru warn that 0.5 million Welsh adults spent Christmas in Dickensian conditions, in cold, damp homes, and UK Government support payments are due to end in two months' time. So, can a statement outline how the Welsh Government will put pressure on the Westminster Government to extend support for households, support for businesses, and to urge them to change this dreadful system that rewards rich companies and leaves the poorest people to freeze?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister for Social Justice is already doing just that. I know she's written to the UK Government today, to Grant Shapps, making that point. The Minister will share that letter with us, and hopefully when she does get a response she will also share that letter with Members.

Mike Hedges AC: Carrying on the energy theme, I'm requesting a Government statement on progress being made by the Welsh Government on ending standing charges on days when no energy is used. When people have their first hot meal for days, which is likely to be a tin of soup, and find they have used up to a quarter of their energy credit, to me this is fundamentally wrong. I would add the word 'cruel' as well. Whilst opposed in principle to standing charges, which hit the poorest hardest, as a first step it is imperative that standing charges are not made on days when no energy is used.
I would also like to ask for a Government statement on the future of papurau bro in Wales. These are Welsh language, local, community newspapers produced by volunteers and generally published monthly. In Swansea, we haveWilia, which is very good, and which has now gone online only. It provides a valuable opportunity to keep up with what is happening in Welsh-medium schools, the local Welsh societies, and Welsh-medium chapels. I'm asking for a Government plan for the continuation of these vital resources.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that the Minister for Social Justice absolutely agrees with you on the substantive issue you raise. I know she's had several meetings with energy companies and also with Ofgem. I think the last time we met Ofgem was yesterday, where she raised this issue with them. We believe there should be no standing charges for prepayment customers. They're a real injustice for prepayment customers.
With regard to your second question,papurau broare absolutely unique sources here in Wales for our Welsh language community-based news. We're very grateful for the work of many volunteers who work very hard to ensure that they're published each month. I think it's fair to say that COVID-19 posed a real threat to them. Many did continue to be published and some adapted to being published online, as you referred to. I know the Minister for Education and Welsh Language last week announced a one-off inflationary support for Welsh language grant-funded organisations, and the network of papurau browill receive an additional £6,000.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, today I'd like to ask for two statements, please. First, can I ask for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services about the frequency of inspection and maintenance of electrical equipment in hospitals across Wales? Last Wednesday, as I'm sure you're aware, a fire caused the Royal Gwent Hospital to be evacuated and a number of out-patient appointments to be cancelled, causing much disruption and inconvenience to patients and staff alike. So, can I please have a statement from the Minister about whether the current inspection regime and maintenance of electrical equipment in our hospitals are adequate to try to avoid such events happening in the future?
Secondly, can we have a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change about the introduction of the much-heralded road tolling and congestion charges in Wales? Motorists in Wales were rightly furious when they discovered these plans were set out in the Welsh Government's transport delivery plan, and residents and commuters in Cardiff would have been further dismayed to hear a Labour Senedd Member saying in this Chamber two weeks ago that she was happy that it was increasingly difficult for people to bring their cars into the city centre and then call for a significant rise in the cost of city-centre parking. So, can we have a statement from the Deputy Minister outlining his plans to further punish motorists in an attempt to force them off the roads and to use inconvenient and unreliable public transport, where it exists? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think your second request is an absolute 'no.' Certainly, the Deputy Minister is not going to come and talk about how he punishes car drivers or owners. The most important thing—I'm sure we all recognise this—is that we face up to the climate emergency that's not coming down the track, but is absolutely here now.
In relation to your first request, all health boards report on estates and facilities management every year. The Minister has the performance data on an annual basis. And I know, for instance, that there has been a backlog, I appreciate that, but that has more or less been caught up now. I'm sure she is aware of the incident you referred to and will ask her officials to ensure that the correct inspection time was adhered to.

Jack Sargeant AC: If I could continue on what is a national scandal and my campaign to end that national scandal of the forced installation of prepayment meters, Trefnydd, you'll be aware that, out of 500,000 warrants applied for through the courts, just 72 were refused. It seems to me that something is clearly wrong there and is unjust there. Over a week ago now, Grant Shapps recognised that this information was extremely concerning. He wrote to the energy suppliers, but he's yet to do anything meaningful. That's in stark contrast to the Minister for Social Justice, who has shown real leadership on this issue. Could I ask for some more investigative work from the Welsh Government and then a statement on the back of that, firstly on the worrying scale of warrants being issued, particularly in the Swansea courts, where tens of thousands of warrants are seemingly being linked to just one particular debt collection agent engaged by numerous energy suppliers, and then, secondly, on the level of debt that is triggering a warrant application and whether that's becoming lower? This is a real national scandal and we need to put an end to this now.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I quite agree with you. This is a very important issue, and obviously the Minister for Social Justice, as you said, has shown real leadership in relation to this. I mentioned in an earlier answer that she met with Ofgem just yesterday—I think you've met them several times before—as well as with energy suppliers, to really express her grave concerns surrounding the large volume of court warrants that have been issued from magistrates' courts. The Minister also wrote to the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy expressing these concerns. There's a real safety and a social justice risk here to vulnerable households, including those with medical conditions. They're being forced onto prepayment meters against their will, or even their knowledge.The system is currently failing vulnerable people in our society, and I know the Minister has absolutely urged the UK Government to end the abhorrent practice of forced installation of prepayment meters, and strengthen the rules and obligations of suppliers to ensure they support rather than punish their customers. At the Ofgem meeting yesterday, the Minister really questioned whether they have the sufficient powers and interventions to safeguard our householders here in Wales and whether the regulations do go far enough to protect households.I understand Ofgem are proposing to formally review the policy around prepayment meters later this year and will have discussions with consumer groups and industry on proposed amendments. Obviously, the Minister and her officials will continue to engage with them.

Gareth Davies AS: Could I ask for a statement from the Minister for Finance and Local Government this afternoon on the condition of rural roads in Denbighshire? I've been contacted by local people in the county concerned by the increasing amount of potholes and deep crevices causing many headaches for road users and farm traffic, and some being described as being from the third world. In the previous cabinet, they put aside £4 million specifically for improving roads in Denbighshire, and now the current cabinet are saying it's not enough. So, how do we win here, Trefnydd? Can I, therefore, request a statement from the Welsh Government on the advice you can give to Denbighshire leaders on how to reprioritise their spending, or indeed provide additional funding so that my constituents can get around safely?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Once again, the Member asks me for a statement on an area, really, that—. It's not our role to tell Denbighshire council how to repair their potholes or how to reprioritise their budget; that's for them. They answer to the local population, and it absolutely is a matter for them.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. Following the budget scrutiny that took place in the Equality and Social Justice Committee, I wrote to the Minister for Social Justice to ask how much of the capital allocation for the Gypsy and Traveller sites—£3.7 million in this current financial year—had been spent. Unfortunately, the Minister has responded that none of it has been spent, and none is forecast to be spent before 31 March. I wish to raise this because this means that no local authority has seen fit to invest in the much-needed Traveller sites this year, even though the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 now criminalises anyone who stops at an unregistered site. This is completely unacceptable for this vulnerable community, and I want to request a statement on what the Welsh Government plans to do about such a significant issue for a vulnerable and marginalised community.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I understand the Minister for Social Justice is aware of your concerns and shares the view that there is a real need to maximise investment in new sites and improvements to existing sites. I understand the Minister's officials met residents at sites in north Wales at the end of last year, and that engagement is going on right across Wales over the coming months. I think the Minister would be happy to make a written statement setting out the steps being taken to make progress on this issue. I understand it was also discussed with local authority cabinet leads for equality today.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Minister for Economy

Item 3 is questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Economic Resilience

Andrew RT Davies AC: 1. What action is the Minister taking to improve economic resilience in South Wales Central? OQ59046

Vaughan Gething AC: Our economic mission sets out our economic priorities and how we can help to make Wales a more resilient and prosperous nation. We are strengthening everyday sectors of the Welsh economy, together with a focus on supporting firms to innovate and diversify, speed up business decarbonisation, and invest in climate-resilient infrastructure.

Andrew RT Davies AC: South Wales Central, Minister, obviously hosts two enterprise zones—the one in the Vale of Glamorgan and the financial enterprise zone in the centre of Cardiff. They were set up by a previous Minister and have been a central plank of successive Governments here in Cardiff Bay as to employment opportunities and investment opportunities.What role, going forward, do the enterprise zones have in improving economic resilience, going forward with the vision that you have as the Minister? Are you able to update us as to the outcomes from the two enterprise zones that are located in South Wales Central, as to employment opportunities—increases that we might have seen—and inward investment monies that might have come because of these areas being created?

Vaughan Gething AC: I can't give you figures off the top of my head for the two zones, but I'll be more to happy to respond to Members on both those points. But more broadly, if you look at Cardiff as an area, if you look at professional services, you have seen real growth and continued investment. I recently met a number of professional services firms with a UK and international footprint who already have a base here in the capital region and are looking to invest further. What we actually have been doing is reviewing the future role of enterprise zones, the ones that we will continue with, and, actually, how we work alongside our economic regions. We're looking to have shared areas of working together with those regions. And actually, there's the growth deal money—the UK Government have also invested into a part of that—in helping to have a range of sectors, where each region can look at what they can do and have significant growth in, and how the Welsh Government can work in partnership with them. But I'll certainly happily come back to you about the two enterprise zones that have existed in the Vale and here in Cardiff as well.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Given reports that UK Government Ministers may relax rules for foreign students, to allow them to work more hours, does the Minister have any plans to discuss this with the UK Government, so that foreign students who want to work can help fill the labour shortage experienced by Cardiff's hospitality industry?

Vaughan Gething AC: We haven't been notified directly by the UK Government that they will proceed with what's been briefed about the potential to relax the rules for foreign students to work more hours. However, I'd say that the starting point is that we really do value international students who come to Wales—they enrich campuses, classrooms and the communities that they live in, both economically and culturally. One of the things that I most enjoyed about going to university was actually meeting people from different parts of the world—it was part of the broader enrichment. But whilst some of those people will work in hospitality, actually, their economic value is much, much more than that. We're very fortunate that we manage to not just attract students to come here to study, but a number of them stay, they have job opportunities, and they certainly enrich a whole range of our economic sectors as well. I'm very pleased that this Government continues to support the international mobility of students, in particular through our Taith programme, but also projects like Global Wales. Myself and the Minister for Social Justice continue to maintain dialogue with our immigration advisers, and I continue to make the case for a more sensible approach to immigration more generally, because of the economic benefits it provides. I hope it'll provide an attack of common sense when it comes to international students, as opposed to some of the alternative briefing you might hear from the current occupant of the Home Office.

The Wrexham Gateway Project

Ken Skates AC: 2. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that the UK Government's decision not to support the Wrexham Gateway project will have on the Welsh economy? OQ59032

Vaughan Gething AC: We remain fully committed to delivering the social, environmental and economic benefits of the Wrexham Gateway project. We are having urgent discussions with our partners to assess the impact of the UK Government’s decision not to support the Gateway in the latest levelling-up round of funding, and to identify alternative ways of delivering the benefits that the Gateway project could and should provide.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you very much for that positive message for the people of Wrexham and the region. Wrexham AFC, of course, have been talking recently about a plan B, and the Welsh Government has already earmarked, I believe, £25 million to this project. Will you reaffirm the Welsh Government's commitment to delivering the Wrexham Gateway project in full, and commit to engaging with the club and other project stakeholders to help develop plan B and ensure that this project comes to fruition for the people of Wrexham?

Vaughan Gething AC: The allocation that we've already provided in 2021, the £25 million you mentioned, is still available. My officers met with the Wrexham Gateway partnership last week, following the announcement that the levelling-up funding bid had been rejected. Of course, it's disappointing that Wrexham and Flintshire didn't receive anything from the levelling-up bids. There are a range of projects that you couldn't say amount to levelling-up, like a £45 million road congestion scheme in Dover—that has nothing to do with levelling-up—or the £19 million that somehow found its way to the Prime Minister's very wealthy rural constituency. We will carry on working with the Wrexham Gateway project, with our partners, to look at alternative funding options—as you say, a plan B—and that will of course include discussions with the football club. I'll be happy to update the constituency Member on those discussions as they progress.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Ken Skates, for submitting this important question here today. I certainly share some disappointment regarding decisions not to be able to support the bid for the levelling-up funding for the Wrexham Gateway project. But I'm pleased to hear the Minister's positive response in terms of the ongoing discussions with the Wrexham Gateway partnership, and that engagement with the football club in Wrexham, to see that important project become a success for the city of Wrexham. I'm also pleased to note that Wales received over £200 million worth of levelling-up funding, supporting projects up and down Wales, with nearly £50 million of that in my region of North Wales. I'm also pleased to see that Wales received the highest amount of money per capita, compared to the rest of Great Britain, through the levelling-up funding. I'm also pleased to see that Wrexham, through the shared prosperity fund, received £22.5 million, as well as being very much engaged with the growth deal in north Wales as well. In light of all that, Minister, and in light of all the positivity that we can see in Wrexham and the opportunities that are ahead for us in Wrexham, what specific plans do you have to ensure that Wrexham is able to grasp hold of those opportunities over the coming years, to make sure that Wrexham is able to be the economic powerhouse that it is?

Vaughan Gething AC: We continue to work constructively with representatives for Wrexham. That's why we continue to engage in both the Wrexham Gateway project and indeed the shared discussions taking place on the broader Mersey Dee Alliance as well. I won't join the Member in celebrating the levelling-up fund round 2. There was an extraordinary delay in projects. The Member might want to consider whether celebrating and asking others to join in celebrating the levelling-up fund outcomes is really appropriate when you consider that Wales got 10 per cent of the last funding round. In contrast, we used to receive 22 per cent of the UK's allocation of previous EU structural fund programmes. We are still being short-changed and the way that replacement moneys are being allocated is a direct breach of very clear repeated manifesto pledges that Wales would not lose out by a single penny. The Conservatives really need to decide whether they want to celebrate Wales getting less or join the campaign for Wales to get its fair share, because the levelling-up fund is doing anything but that.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Minister. First, the Conservatives' spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, at the start of this month, you announced that you'd be launching a refreshed manufacturing action plan setting out the Welsh Government's ambitions for the manufacturing sector. Can you confirm when that action plan will be published?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm having a range of stakeholder engagements within the next couple of months with businesses in the area. We've undertaken a review of the previous manufacturing action plan. We've shared a consultation with businesses around that. I look forward to taking part directly with business representatives over the next two months. Then, I will be more than happy to launch that and take questions from Members, either in this place or, indeed, in the committee that the Member chairs.

Paul Davies AC: It seems to me that the Minister doesn't know when he is going to launch this refresh, but I hope very much that it will be very, very soon.
A key part of the current manufacturing action plan is building supply chain resilience. Of course, the Welsh Government could use the levers it has to reform the planning system in order to strengthen and develop our supply chain. One of the points highlighted in the current plan is to ensure the needs of manufacturing are taken into account when planning the delivery of business premises, for example. So, can you tell us whether the Welsh Government has met this objective, and can you also tell us what further action you intend to take to reform the planning system in order to support business development in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: There are two things, I would say. The first is that I've given an indication of where we are in refreshing the plan, and it's not very far away at all. The idea that I don't have any idea is a misrepresentation—I'm sure, innocently—of the answer that I gave the Member. Actually, this morning, I was able to visit a manufacturing business in Pontypool with the leader of Torfaen, who was celebrating his birthday today. He had the privilege of spending some time with me in doing so in my colleague the Member for Torfaen's constituency. We were looking there at a successful manufacturing business, nearly 10 years in operation, what it's done to improve what it's doing and how it's actually worked with the local authority as well as the Welsh Government to go through a range of planning conditions to improve its business environment. You'll know that I'm not the planning Minister, but it is something that we do consider. The way that 'Planning Policy Wales' interacts with the manufacturing strategy and a range of other things are key considerations for us. So, when we launch the manufacturing action plan, you can expect us to have taken account of all those interactions. But I won't pretend for the purposes of these questions that I'm also the planning Minister, as the Member knows I'm not.

Paul Davies AC: As I said, I look forward to that refresh as soon as possible. Minister, it's crucial that the Welsh Government is using the levers that it has to help support our manufacturing sector, and a refresh of that action plan, of course, is a welcome start. Earlier this month, Steve Dalton, the former managing director of Bridgend's Sony factory, rightly said that there was a future for Welsh manufacturing if there was innovation, development of green technologies and a focus on global markets. Of course, key to that is skills development and investment in research and development. The current plan states that a more co-ordinated approach is needed to help produce a pipeline of talent, and regional skills partnerships should be playing an important role in ensuring that Wales is developing the skills base it needs for the future.Therefore, moving forward, Minister, can you tell us how the Welsh Government's draft budget prioritises manufacturing, by confirming that there will be additional resources to support the sector? And can you tell us what specific actions the Welsh Government has introduced to ensure that the sector has the skills it needs for the future?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, there are a number of things that I agree with the Member on, but there's also a point of contest between us about the environment that we're operating in, of course. So, I agree—innovation and global markets are key to the success of a range of manufacturing businesses. I was with the Member for Ogmore at the Sony site in Pencoed last week, looking at—. They're celebrating 50 years, and they appreciate the relationship they've had with the Welsh Government, and the change in that plant's operation over time, not just for the Sony operation to continue, but it's about the other businesses that are on that site too. And, in fact, when it comes to exports from Wales, we've now reached and gone past the level of exports we had before the pandemic—the first part of the UK to recover in those terms. So, actually, we're doing relatively well compared to other parts of the UK.
The challenge is that the environment we're in has changed significantly, and you will have seen and, no doubt, be concerned about the International Monetary Fund's latest forecast about the UK economy. The fact that we're in a different position within the UK to the rest of the G7, that's part of the challenge that we face. The challenge that's specifically here in Wales, of course—and you mentioned skills partnerships and the need to invest in skills and innovation—is that our funds have been deliberately denuded. The way that the UK Government made choices around replacement EU funds, knowing full well how we use those to support and invest in the skills of workforces, has made a real difference. That money has been reduced and it's been changed to a different purpose in a different area of articulation by the UK Government. Now, that reduction in money has a real-terms consequence. And you will have seen in the draft budget that we can't fill in all the holes about the UK Government making those choices, and, again, it's a deliberate reach and assault into devolution. These are areas that are plainly devolved, but the UK Government are making alternative choices. The Member may not like hearing it, but it's the truth of the matter, and, if you talked with and listened to what businesses, the higher education sector and others are saying, they all recognise that too.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Deputy Minister, an Institute of Welsh Affairs report published last year described communities in Wales as the least empowered in Britain. It further stated that people are facing an arduous and demoralising process to save assets, such as leisure centres, libraries and land, and that it is extremely likely that libraries and land have been lost due to Welsh Ministers not empowering communities. As you will be aware, local authorities across Wales have been consulting on their budget proposals for the next financial year, and amongst proposals are changes or cuts to leisure centres, libraries and museums. What discussions have there been between Welsh Government and local authorities regarding the future of such services? And what support is being made available to ensure that these vital services are not lost? Some of these cuts are imminent, from 1 April, therefore time is of the essence.

Dawn Bowden AC: I'm very well aware of the pressures on many of our local authorities and public bodies. We have done whatever we can to support both national institutions and the local authorities. The local authorities, as you know, have had the best financial settlement in a long time, and much higher than they had anticipated, and how they utilise that budget is a matter for them. They have their own democratic mandates and they have to make those decisions. I hope that the decisions that they come to, following their deliberations and their consultations, will be that they take things like leisure centres and museums in the whole and that they realise that they are part of the wider well-being agenda for their population. I think you have to look at that in a holistic way rather than on a piece-by-piece basis, but certainly we have provided for individual organisations—libraries, National Museum Wales, the National Library of Wales and so on—additional funding to get them through this immediate crisis, and, as I say, with the local authorities and their increased budgets, I hope that they will be able to do something. But one of the things that I am concerned about, and remain concerned about, is the UK Government's relief scheme that has still excluded swimming pools, for instance, from their proposals, and we do continue to press the UK Government to utilise their powers to support swimming pools, which are probably the hardest hit, and potentially the hardest hit in this process.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. But we know that councils will be cutting these vital services—services that, as you outline, are rightly incredibly important in terms of the future generations Act, health and well-being and so on. We know that these cuts are coming from 1 April unless something drastically changes. We know that financial settlement hasn't been adequate to ensure that those non-statutory services are protected. Therefore, my question is: what is Welsh Government doing to support local authorities? I know it's democratically up to them, but the choices they're having to make are incredible difficult. So, what support is being provided? You referenced swimming pools, for instance, and we saw over the weekend Fergus Feeney of Swim Wales warning that nearly a third of the 500 public swimming pools in Wales could close. And they are asking as well—yes, of course, the levers are with the UK Government—for action from the Welsh Government as well. So, as Deputy Minister with responsibility for sports, which would include swimming, what are you doing to ensure that that’s not the case?

Dawn Bowden AC: First, I think I have to go back to my original point and a point that you have acknowledged: local authorities have their own democratic mandate. We can’t direct local authorities to do what they want to do with money that they have within their rate support grant. They will have to make their own decisions and make their own priorities. We can’t direct them in that area. What we have done is we have provided local authorities with a substantial uplift in their rate support grant and we have given as much as we can within our constraints. I think you’re coming from a point that somehow we have a pot of money that we can just dip into and allocate that we haven’t already allocated, and I think the finance Minister and the First Minister have explained time and time again on the floor of this Chamber how we have prioritised health and we have prioritised local government. Those two services in particular have had the highest settlements that we’ve been able to provide, and, within those settlements, those bodies have to make their spending decisions, particularly local authorities that have their own democratic mandate. And of course those choices are difficult; those choices are also difficult for Welsh Government in terms of where we allocate our resources. There are no easy choices. I have met with Swim Wales and I have rehearsed the arguments with Swim Wales. They understand the Welsh Government’s position, and of course they’re calling for more money, as every organisation that we help and that we fund and that we support is asking for more money. But we can only provide the funding that we can within the envelope that is available to us, and I hope that local authorities and leisure organisations will be able to make the best decisions that they can to protect as many of our leisure facilities as possible.

Rural Banking Provision

Gareth Davies AS: 3. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve rural banking provision in Denbighshire? OQ59049

Vaughan Gething AC: Decisions on scaling high-street banking back in Wales are ones that rest with the major retail banks. I applaud the efforts being made by a number of people, including those in Denbigh, to retain a bank branch. The Welsh Government will continue working with the Monmouthshire Building Society to realise our ambition for community banking in Wales.

Gareth Davies AS: I appreciate your response, Minister, and the reason I’m asking this question today is for that very reason, because HSBC in Denbigh is set to close in the summer as part of 114 branch closures across the UK. But what I don’t believe is that the due diligence has been considered for people in rural areas, and in particular the people of Denbigh, where some can’t travel as far as Rhyl or Ruthin to carry out their financial affairs if they are elderly, disabled, can’t drive or don’t have access to public transport. When I asked about this in the business statement last week, the Trefnydd told me that the matter wasn’t devolved to Wales and therefore didn’t require a statement. But you yourself, Minister, in 2021 released a statement on the Welsh Government’s plan to support towns that have lost their banks. So, which is it, Minister, and what are you going to do to support people in rural Denbighshire?

Vaughan Gething AC: Financial services are not a devolved matter. However we have an ambition to help improve access to local services, which is why we’re engaged with the Monmouthshire Building Society on a programme to try to regenerate community banking in a range of communities in Wales.
I recognise that, within the over 100 closures across the UK, 12 of those HSBC closures will be in Wales. It’s part of the trend we’ve seen a part of the changing way consumers choose to bank, and what that means is there’s a divide in the way that different people access banking. So, it’s partly a rural issue, and it’s also issue in urban communities as well about having access to cash. Now, my understanding is that, whilst in Denbigh’s case, HSBC had created an impact analysis report, we’ve yet to see the stakeholder engagement report published and made available online to understand the direct cost. Now, we will carry on working with other partners in areas that we are not directly responsible for, but we're doing this because we recognise there should be real benefit for access to affordable financial services in communities that may not otherwise see them. So, we'll carry on working with our partners in Monmouthshire Building Society, we'll carry on in our conversations with the UK Government, and we look forward to seeing whether banking hubs really will provide the scale and the pace of roll-out to try to match the pace and the scale of branch closures. I'm not optimistic that we'll see a match between those two, but we'll carry on being engaged as constructively as we can and should be.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, to have the opportunity once again to raise the issue of banking provision in the Senedd. I think it's one that's well rehearsed on the floor of this Chamber. It's one that affects every corner of Wales. The Minister will be fully aware of my long-standing campaign to bring Wales's first community bank branch to Buckley in my own constituency. What is clear, Minister, is that there is clear cross-party consensus and support for the establishment of the Welsh Government's bold proposal of a community bank, but it's important that we now deliver that bold proposal. Can I ask the Minister whether he will do everything he can in his department to ensure Banc Cambria will be progressed as quickly as possible?

Vaughan Gething AC: We're certainly looking to progress as quickly as possible, and that's the challenge, because the environment around this has changed. The environment in terms of the mortgage market is in a different place now, I'm afraid. We're likely to see a change in house prices over the next year, with a recession largely predicted. So, I'm meeting with my officials and Monmouthshire Building Society on the banking project. The Minister for Social Justice is also now engaged, because I have the task of trying to get the bank established and then it would switch to the Minister for Social Justice's portfolio for its ongoing engagement with Ministers here. The Member regularly raises Buckley, and I think he's also generously agreed that we could call the community bank the Buckley bank if we wanted to. Whilst I don't think we'll do that, we'll carry on keeping Members as informed as possible, and I'm hoping we'll have an update in the coming months on the pace of the work that's being done. I'm also very keen that Monmouthshire Building Society and Banc Cambria themselves engage directly with Members, because, you're right, there is cross-party support for this. It's important that it continues to be seen in that way with direct engagement with Members across the political spectrum.

Elite Sports Strategy

Laura Anne Jones AC: 4. Does the Welsh Government have an elite sports strategy? OQ59052

Dawn Bowden AC: Sport Wales is the national organisation responsible for developing and promoting sport and physical activity in Wales and is doing so in line with its vision and strategy.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister. You could have fooled me, as the strategy has not been updated since the initial release in 2015, eight years ago. Half of those aims relate to sporting bodies themselves, as you've just said. The rest needed Welsh Government's direct funding, which, of course, has been found lacking. The aim of the last strategy for Wales was to be the No. 1 Commonwealth Games sporting nation and to increase the number and quality of athletes on the UK world-class programmes. This hasn't happened.
Minister, the Government is failing elite sports. Labour have made no investment for decades. There's not been and still isn't any vision from this Welsh Government. We see no international swimming pool in north Wales, no rugby venue in the north, and we still have no equality of provision across Wales when it comes to facilities. As we see elite athletes and junior teams having to self-fund and travel to England to use the basic facilities, they are just not supported how they should be. Elite athletes and teams are not getting the investment they need or deserve, yet I see the Deputy Minister, of course, quick to celebrate any success when successes for our sportspeople are clearly in spite of this Welsh Government and the lack of funding, not because of them. When will we see the strategy updated and a true vision for elite sport in Wales?

Dawn Bowden AC: Of course, the vision for sport is the replacement strategy, so the strategy that you're talking about hasn't been updated, it's been replaced. We now have the vision for sport that seeks to promote Wales to the world through the performance of our elite athletes and our sporting excellence. The Sport Wales sport strategy aims to deliver that success for Wales on the world stage through a holistic approach to developing athletes and creating environments where they can thrive. As I'm sure Laura Jones is well aware, Wales is an integral part of the UK high-performance system, so we don't sit alone in this and we are part of the Olympic and Paralympic Sport Wales athletes programme for team GB on the highest sporting stage. You will know yourself how many Welsh athletes contribute to the GB team at the Olympics and the success that they have had through that programme. It's just simply not true to say that there is no investment in sport in Wales. Our revenue budget to Sport Wales is £23 million in the last year. It will be another £24 million in the next financial year, and we have an annual capital budget for sport in Wales of £8 million a year. We've provided an increased in-year allocation this year on capital investment in sport of £1.54 million.
Now, the elite pathways for sport are developed through the national governing bodies. They are not the direct responsibility of Sport Wales; they are developed through the national governing bodies. It is also not true to say that Sport Wales doesn't support and fund individual elite athletes, because they do through the National Lottery and they receive support through Elite Cymru, which is part of Sport Wales. They will receive funding through that route when they are referred by their national governing bodies. So, our investment in sport is partly through the lottery and it is partly through the direct funding that Sport Wales receives. As I've said, we are part of international organisations and bodies as well.

Mike Hedges AC: We cannot overestimate the importance of lottery funding to individuals. For the major team sports, such as football and rugby, player development is carried out by amateur and professional clubs, with professional football clubs having academies. Where support is needed is for younger players in sports such as tennis; players who need to travel to national and international tournaments and who need high-quality coaching. What support is being provided, either directly or indirectly, to these young people?

Dawn Bowden AC: The support for team sports goes through the national governing bodies. Individual support can be afforded, as I've said, for individuals if they are referred through their national governing body through to Sport Wales.

The Steel Industry

Jack Sargeant AC: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with UK Government counterparts on protecting the future of the steel industry in Wales? OQ59034

Vaughan Gething AC: The First Minister and I continue to engage with our key counterparts in the UK Government. I met with Ministers from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy last week, when I raised steel as an issue. We also engage with senior representatives of the steel sector in Wales, on both the business and trade union side. We continue to believe, in the Welsh Government, in the importance of securing a sustainable future for the strategically important steel sector in Wales as part of what should be seen as sovereign UK capability.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer and, also, to the Welsh Government for their continued support for the steel industry in Wales. The Minister has joined me on many occasions at Shotton Steel in my own constituency, which proves that you understand the importance of Welsh steel and you understand the importance of Shotton having a supply of green steel.
Minister, industry partners like Tata Steel and the trade unions, such as Unite the Union and the Community union—and I declare that I'm a member of both trade unions, Deputy Presiding Officer—have both been calling for the UK Government to invest in the sector through ensuring that energy prices are competitive with competing nations and, also, to invest in the decarbonisation of plants.Now, the £600 million offered by the UK Government is simply not enough; that was the clear message of concern during the cross-party group on steel last night. We know that you'll be joining the cross-party group on steel some time in future. We're yet to hear from the Prime Minister, or the last three Prime Ministers, in response to our letters, which, perhaps, is no surprise. But, Minister, will you continue to lead calls for meaningful investment from the UK Government in the Welsh steel industry?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'll certainly do that. And it's not just about meaningful investment, but you're right to point out that the industry itself recognises that it needs to chart a path to decarbonisation for a sustainable future. But, to do that, we shouldn't simply collapse our own capacity within the UK and end up importing steel without understanding the carbon footprint of steel produced in other parts of the world. This is a set of questions that will affect other Members in the Chamber. I see both Newport constituency Members with an interest in what's happening with Liberty; the Deputy Presiding Officer can't speak, but he's obviously got a significant interest too.
What we have been calling for is to get us to that greener future for steel production, and to recognise that it's important for a range of industries today. That means action on the high costs of energy compared to European counterparts. That also means action on scrap exports. We export millions of tonnes of scrap metal every year; we should be keeping more of that in the UK for our steel sector. We also want the UK Government to partner with the industry to chart out some of the challenges over capital investment. We also want to see investment in hydrogen as an alternative for blast steel technologies in the future, rather than seeing all of that take place in other parts of the world.
So, there are direct jobs, there are dependent jobs in the supply chain, and, of course, large industries, whether it's construction or manufacturing, that are reliant on steel, including the big opportunities that exist in marine energy and floating offshore wind. I want to see British and Welsh steel in those products in the future, and that requires a different approach from the UK Government. A £600 million offer between two companies isn't going to get us where we need to be, but at least there is an offer for us to work with, and hopefully see an end result that all of us can celebrate and be positive about.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, we all accept the need to decarbonise our steel industry. While the funding being offered by the UK Government to Tata to move to electric arc furnaces is welcome, an alternative has emerged in the past few days. Scientists at the University of Birmingham have developed a process to radically reduce emissions from a traditional blast furnace. This technology converts carbon dioxide into carbon monoxide that can be reused in the iron ore reaction. In this process, the typically damaged carbon dioxide is turned into a useful part of the reaction, forming an almost perfect closed carbon loop, and reduces emissions by around 90 per cent. Minister, will you work with the UK Government, Tata and Birmingham University to explore further whether this approach could enable Wales to retain its sovereign steel production activity? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm seriously interested in maintaining that capability within the UK, and that will exist here. The challenge is that the £300 million offer for Tata to equalise the £300 million offer to British Steel—they're actually different scales of operation. And actually, that's about moving towards electric arc production rather than maintaining an alternative form of blast steel manufacture. The challenge really is around capital investment, and how quickly that can be deployed, and the window for doing so isn't infinite. It has been a regular conversation that, as I've said in response to Jack Sargeant, I've had directly with UK Ministers, the First Minister has had directly with UK Ministers and directly with steel firms and the trade union side as well. There needs to be a sense of urgency from UK Government on this, and I hope that the Chancellor uses the budget coming up in March as an opportunity to announce and agree something meaningful to give our steel sector the opportunity to invest in its future and our future, and as I say, to see this as a sovereign UK capability. If it does that, there should be good news for the workers here in Wales.

Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for your chairmanship of the cross-party group.

Luke Fletcher AS: The reality is that much of the investment for the steel industry must come from the UK Government, and I'd have to join Jack Sargeant in saying that it is disappointing that there is a reluctance from UK Government Ministers to engage with our CPG. In fairness to you, Minister, I think this will be the second time that you've come to the CPG now, and I know Members are very appreciative of that.
We know that steel is important for reaching net zero, so, to this end—and you mentioned hydrogen use in blast furnaces—I would like to explore further how steel factors into the Welsh Government's approach to hydrogen. Of course, hydrogen may offer a way of producing low-carbon steel and secure the industry's future, and the risk, of course, is that if we don't look at hydrogen more, we may focus too much on recycled steel.

Vaughan Gething AC: There are investment choices being made in Holland—it's not a secret—around hydrogen as an alternative to blast furnace technology there. The challenge is that, if we don't see action taken by the UK Government to engage in that conversation, because they will need to be a partner to make that work, then we would end up importing that steel from other parts of the world. Now, it doesn't mean that the steel sector doesn't exist without blast furnace technology. There's a part of the sector that wouldn't exist, and the challenge then is, could you persuade a future UK Government and future businesses to invest in importing that technology that is proven somewhere else? There's a real risk for us in doing so. I also think it's important for what our ambitions are for steel itself, how we see it as a real capability, and it would make a big difference to workers in the sector. So, we've been really clear and really consistent that we want the UK Government to be part of this. And if it did so, and if you had that major investment made in that alternative technology, it would help with hydrogen use and pipeline, and the incentive to generate green hydrogen—[Inaudible.]—to significant industrial clusters, whether in south or north Wales. So, there should be alternative gains to be made, but that does require a significant UK Government choice.

John Griffiths AC: You mentioned Liberty Steel, Minister, and the mothballing of that plant has understandably created a great deal of concern. You would know, Minister, that that industrial operation is very extensive, and has many opportunities within it, I think. You've got the power station there, the rail links and the rail head, its own dock and the scale of the site; it has great potential, and there's a deal of frustration that that potential isn't being realised at the moment. So, will you, Minister, work with Liberty Steel and possibly others in the future to make sure that the potential in that site is fully realised for economic development and jobs growth?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. I'm very happy to carry on working together with my officials, and the company, and counterparts in the UK Government if we can find an answer for the sites in both Newport and Tredegar. We want to see the steel sector have a healthy future. If we can't generate and produce that steel ourselves, we will end up importing it from other parts of the world, with greater risk in terms of price volatility, supply, and, of course, our understanding of the carbon footprint of that steel production. One of the positives is that the workforce are loyal to the site and to their workplace. There's a challenge there about maintaining that sense of unity. If we can help in securing an economic and sustainable future for the site, then I'm certainly happy to continue to work as hard as we possibly can to do so.

The Snowdonia Aerospace Centre

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on the Snowdonia Aerospace Centre in Llanbedr? OQ59050

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: We remain committed to supporting the aerospace centre. We continue to work closely with Gwynedd Council, the site operator and other partners to help attract investment to the site. We recognise its global potential to the space sector for Wales, and in attracting economic activity to rural Gwynedd.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much for that response. The Government, of course, has invested millions in developing the Snowdonia aerospace centre in Llanbedr, and the Government has great ambitions for developing Wales as a leader in space technology. But experts in the area and the tenants on the site say that delivering these ambitions will be impossible without improvement to infrastructure to reach the site. In the absence of any public funds to build the link road, it's very difficult to see how the Government's ambitions are nothing but a pipe dream. So, what credible plan does the Government have in place for the Llanbedr centre, or is the Minister happy to see the Meirionydd coast being nothing more than a playground for visitors? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: No, that's absolutely not the vision of me individually, or, indeed, the Government. We have seen over £3.5 million of public investment in the site since 2012. We also have seen a range of activity, including remotely-piloted aircraft systems and unmanned aircraft test and evaluation programmes as a result. We're looking for the leaseholders of the site to work with us in actually designing the future, because there are other parts of our growing space sector that are interested in the future use of Llanbedr as a site for them. It's not all about Spaceport Cornwall. You'll have seen the flight that didn't quite make it into space, but one of the companies on there was a Welsh company. They also look at the potential, not just in Cornwall, but what they could do in Llanbedr as well. So, I think the challenge is how we get to that point, with the right investment partner, to actually see that potential realised. So, I don't take the downbeat view that the Member has in his supplementary. I think there is still a really positive future for significant economic development activity around that site for his constituents and beyond.

Small and Medium-sized Businesses

John Griffiths AC: 7. How is the Welsh Government supporting small and medium-sized businesses across Newport East? OQ59054

Vaughan Gething AC: We continue to do everything possible to support the SME sector throughout Wales through our progressive economic policies. These focus on better skills, better jobs and tackling inequality with the tools at our disposal. That includes working with our stakeholders and, of course, we will soon celebrate 10 years of our Business Wales business support programme.

John Griffiths AC: Yes. Often, I think, Minister, small and medium enterprises are so busy running their businesses that it's difficult to be aware of the help and support available, and, indeed, to spend the time to access that. But I must say Business Wales were invaluable in Newport East, and my constituency office worked very well with them during the pandemic, when they were able to make sure that a range of businesses accessed the support that was available. And I know that Business Wales has a strong offer in areas where the Welsh Government is able to act, for example, the economic resilience fund, and that was very much the case at the time. It was a sharp contrast, Minister, I must say, to UK Government, which left many gaps in support for businesses, and I do believe that that continues now, with too many businesses not being supported by UK Government with rising energy bills. This is something indeed that the Federation of Small Businesses have also raised with me. So, Minister, through Business Wales and other mechanisms, what additional support might Welsh Government consider to help small and medium-sized enterprises through this cost-of-doing-business crisis?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. You're right about the economic resilience fund. I was in a different role during the pandemic, but the reality is that, because we didn't spend the same money on our test, trace, protect programme and the way that we used money on our personal protective equipment programme, meant that we provided more successful contact tracing at a lower price than the UK Government did, and we provided a more successful operation of providing PPE to front-line workers. That meant we could be more generous in supporting small and medium-sized businesses and freelancers through the pandemic.
The challenge now is, because of the reductions to our budget—not just in the mainstream settlements, but also things like the shared prosperity fund and others, where money's been taken away from Wales, over £1 billion lost in those three years—we've had to make some really difficult choices. But I've chosen to maintain the Business Wales service because of its value. So, small and medium-sized businesses will continue to have access to all of the support and advice available, together, of course, with investment opportunities from the Development Bank for Wales as well. I appreciate the Member's constituency takes in some of the Monmouthshire county as well, but, in Newport, up to the end of December last year, in the last two years, Business Wales had helped support over 1,000 jobs in small and medium enterprises, with dedicated support provided to 659 businesses and nearly 200 new start-ups. It does show the continued activity that we can and do offer to small and medium businesses, and I'd be more than happy to write to the Member with more details on activity across all the parts of his constituency.

The Tourism Sector

Tom Giffard AS: 8. What support is the Welsh Government providing to the Welsh tourism sector? OQ59044

Vaughan Gething AC: Our strategy 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the visitor economy 2020-2025' sets out our vision and ambition for tourism. We support the sector through promoting Wales at home and abroad, through capital investment and our £50 million Wales tourism investment fund.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm grateful to you, Minister, for your answer. As you know, when people come and visit Wales, they don't just visit one site; they like to come and visit a number of attractions to see a number of things that Wales has to offer. One of the things that has been lacking, though, is an all-Wales visitor pass, if you like, for tourism destinations in Wales. It was withdrawn just before the pandemic, but we haven't seen it re-emerge. It's been nearly three years now. We know individual organisations, such as Cadw and National Trust, operate their own passes, and individual regional tourist boards, such as Mid Wales Tourism's and North Wales Tourism's Great Days Out UK, also offer them. But there's been a lack of an overarching strategy from Welsh Government and a lack of progress, I think, on this. As I say, it's been nearly three years now since we saw this pass. So, can I ask for an update on exactly where this overarching national Welsh tourism pass is?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, it's a conversation we had with the sector about what best to do to support them to make choices, how they promote themselves. Some of this is done on a regional basis successfully. For example, it may make more sense for a visitor to know about activity-based holidays if they're, say, going to Bike Park Wales, in the Deputy Minister's constituency, and if, at random, they wanted to come to the Cardiff International White Water centre, which happens to be in mine—but there are others available as well—and to think about how you can have themed activities that make sense for the businesses and for visitors. And I wouldn't want to say that this would only work if there is a national scheme that everyone has to fit into. We'll carry on working with the sector to understand how we can best support them, as we look forward to a 2023 where we'll expect we'll see significant growth in visitor numbers to Wales to the tourism sector, but we also know there'll be challenges ahead. As we see the likely recession for most of the next year, people will make different choices about their discretionary spend, so we're ready to carry on supporting the tourism sector. That's why I and the finance Minister have made choices about rate support for a range of different sectors in the economy.

Finally, question 9. Adam Price.

Small and Medium-sized Enterprises

Adam Price AC: 9. Will the Minister provide an update on financial support available for small and medium-sized enterprises seeking to expand in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr? OQ59053

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: Our Business Wales service provides businesses with access to a wide range of information, guidance and support, both financial and non-financial, to help grow businesses. Financial support between £1,000 and £10 million is available through the Development Bank of Wales to help Welsh businesses get the finance that they need to expand.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Minister. I had the pleasure of visiting the NappiCycle company in Capel Hendre recently, where I was given a very interesting presentation on recycling nappies. Now, I accept that this doesn't sound like an exciting afternoon, but the level of innovation by the company was excellent. Through various processes, NappiCycle use soiled nappies and similar products and turn them into asphalt for pavements and roads. The business is part of a recycling cluster in Wales that is world-leading, and has been for some years. Now, after the business received funding from part 1 of the small business research initiative, the company, like many others that have grown over the period, is looking forward to future funding to further expand the business. So, can the Minister tell us whether part 2 of SBRI will proceed and give us an update on any other opportunities to support this sector?

Vaughan Gething AC: Funnily enough, I am aware of nappies being turned into asphalt. It's not just something that another relatively new parent would be interested in, given the Member has two young children in his house; I remember the days fondly, and not so fondly at various times, the reality of nappy changing. But there is an opportunity to think about how we can use products to turn them into something useful and with a different purpose in the future, and this is, perhaps, an obvious and interesting example. I'd be more than happy to come back to him. I am due to make a decision on SBRI 2 and the choices to be made around that. We are jointly working, of course, around an innovation strategy as well. I'll undertake to write to the Member both about opportunities for the company he mentions in his constituency as well as the broader point on how we help small businesses to access opportunities to grow and to innovate in the future.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Thank you, Minister.

4. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Item 4 is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Adam Price.

NHS Dental Services

Adam Price AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure sufficient provision of NHS dental services in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr? OQ59048

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Hywel Dda University Health Board is responsible for the provision of dental services in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr. Currently, 92 per cent of NHS dental contract funding in the health board is going to practices that work under the contract reform variation. This means that nearly 12,000 new patients have been seen across the health board during the first nine months of this financial year.

Adam Price AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. This is an issue that we've discussed on a number of occasions, and has been the subject of correspondence between us too. I must emphasise the gravity of this problem, as thousands of people in the Ammanford area particularly are reliant on a service that had been provided by the Margaret Street dentist there. I raised this issue with you in November of last year, and, in fairness to you, Minister, you did provide a positive response before Christmas, telling me that the health board was recommissioning dental services in the area, and that the new service was expected to be established this month. Unfortunately, the message that I've received from a number of constituents is that there's been no communication with them and that the service hasn't commenced as we enter February tomorrow. So, can you now give us an assurance and give my constituents an assurance that this new service will be coming as soon as possible?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I'm pleased to say that the health board has been successful in providing a new contract to a new practice for Ammanford. One of the problems there has been is that the premises there were not functional, and that has caused a problem. It's going to take some time to ensure that the premises are fit for the treatment of people. So, that won't be ready until September. But what will happen is that there will be a mobile dental unit and hub available, and there will be urgent care available from February onwards.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Russell George AC: It's, of course, incredibly difficult to ensure that the Government can plan efficiently, in terms of capacity for dental care in Wales, if the Government or health boards don't know how many people are waiting for an NHS appointment. I know you would agree with that position, Minister. It's also unacceptable, of course, that people, once they're on a waiting list, could be waiting up to 26 months before getting an appointment as well. So, I wonder, Minister, will you explore the options for a centralised waiting list for Wales? I appreciate that would take some time to put in place, so, as an interim measure, would you also explore ensuring that every health board establishes a centralised waiting list for its area? And if you do agree with that, when do you think that could be in place?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I know for a fact that quite a lot of work has already gone into developing a remit that would be needed in order to commission that centralised waiting list. We are, as you know, under very severe financial pressure at the moment, so, although that work is now ready to go, we are financially constrained in terms of whether we can go any further. So, that is a difficult situation for us. Obviously, we're keen to move on with that as soon as we get that additional money, but it's very difficult under the current financial circumstances. What I will say, in particular to the Member who is also chair of the committee, is that, actually, so many of the recommendations in the work that they've been doing recently have been extremely useful to us and, certainly, that centralised waiting list is something we're taking very seriously.

NHS Historical Complaints

Andrew RT Davies AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on how the NHS in Wales deals with historical complaints? OQ59035

Eluned Morgan AC: People wishing to raise a complaint with an NHS body should do so within 12 months. The NHS bodies have discretion to consider complaints that occurred over 12 months but cannot consider complaints that occurred over three years unless they meet specific criteria.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. You'll be aware of the case of my constituent, Barry Topping-Morris. He was caught up in events surrounding the release of a patient from the Caswell clinic in Bridgend who went on to commit homicide. Mr Topping-Morris has long raised concerns about the investigation of these events and the impact they had on his own subsequent career. What assurances can you give him that lessons have been learnt from previous events and that an investigation of any similar event today would be conducted to contemporary standards? And would you be prepared, Minister, to offer an apology to Mr Topping-Morris and his family for the distress that they've been through over the last many years since this complaint was first lodged?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I'd like to say, and I think it's important to say, that there is nothing more important than the safety and care of our NHS patients. I recognise the significant consequences that can occur as a result of inadequate care. I'm really sorry, I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment on individual cases, but what I will say is that the complaints process has changed almost beyond recognition since the time of this particular case. So, we now have 'Putting Things Right', where there is a strong focus on openness and honesty, with a central theme of being open and investigations on the premise of 'investigate once and investigate well'. So, I think we've got to continue our improvement with the introduction of the duties of quality and candour, which will be coming onto the stature book very soon.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, many people in north Wales will, of course, be very concerned to have read today's vascular report into the services provided by the Betsi Cadwaladr health board, and especially to learn that the coroner was not fully informed of four patient deaths from the 47 cases that were reviewed. Historical cases, of course—some of them going back as far as 2014, right up until 2021. Now, it begs the question as to how many other deaths, both in the vascular service and in other clinical disciplines, may not have been appropriately referred to the coroner for consideration. And of course, we read in that report also of the chaotic patient record keeping—and this is in spite of other reports having identified this as a problem over many years—along with a failure to fully implement the recommendations from previous scathing reports. It's alarming, Minister, and people want to know what action the Welsh Government is going to take to make sure that lessons are learned when things go wrong, and that rapid action is taken and is followed up in terms of the implementation of recommendations.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. I have issued a written statement to update all Members on the publication of that report today. I know that publication will be distressing for many of the families involved, and those who access vascular services within the health board. The cases covered within the report cover both pre and post-reorganisation of the service. I know that the health board has apologised to those affected by the report, and to the families who didn't receive the service that they deserved. This report looked in detail at the cases covered in the Royal College of Surgeons' report that was published last year, so these are not new cases; it's just a more thorough investigation.
There were a number of recommendations. We have, obviously, put the vascular service in particular into enhanced monitoring, to make sure that the intervention is monitored regularly. There is an improvement plan. I am updated regularly, and the Welsh Government is updated regularly. I know that my officials spoke yesterday to the north Wales coroner, because, obviously, I was very concerned to hear that the coroner hadn't been informed.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Spokespeople's questions today are all to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Health and Well-being. And the first is to be asked by the Conservative spokesperson, James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, do you agree with me that having public access to mental health data on all mental health conditions is vital to improving mental health services across Wales?

Lynne Neagle AC: Yes, I agree with you that having access to data is vitally important. That's why a key priority for us is to make sure that we can progress our core mental health data set, which will supplement the information that we already routinely publish on mental health waiting times.

James Evans MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Having access to information is important, as you've just realised, for the people we serve, and it also shines a light on the performance of the Welsh Government and health boards. For example, information that was only received via freedom of information requests to health boards shows that 7,258 children are waiting to have an autism diagnosis. Forty per cent of those children are waiting over a year, 22 per cent of those are waiting over 18 months, and 804 children are waiting over two years. And Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board refused to even answer the freedom of information request.
So, I'd like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to tackle these waits and to ensure that, when information is asked of Betsi Cadwaladr health board, they provide the information so that we can scrutinise their performance.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you for that question, James, and it's probably helpful if I clarify that neurodevelopmental services sit with my colleague Julie Morgan, although we do work very closely together as there are, clearly, strong links with mental health services, particularly for children and young people. What I can say is that Julie Morgan has taken decisive action in this area. You'll be aware that £12 million was announced in the summer to deal with the backlog around ND waiting times, and also to support the improvement of ND services. In addition to that, Julie Morgan has also set up an ND advisory group and has been engaging with stakeholders, including people with lived experience, and there is an action plan to improve those waiting times.
For my part, I also recognise that our NEST/NYTHframework is also a key mechanism to support those children and young people, because we want those wraparound services to be available, and children and young people should not need the label of a diagnosis in order to access the support. So, NYTHis also a key area for us in that regard, and something that we work closely on.

James Evans MS: Thank you very much for that, Deputy Minister. After meeting with charities, a lot of them have told me about data not being regularly available, and that one way we could strengthen this area is by relooking at the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 to make sure that there are more targets that the Government can actually implement upon and can be reported back to this Senedd.
So, do you agree with the charities out there in the sector that we need to have a strengthened mental health Measure, and is that something you would look to as a Government, to make sure that we can do our job as opposition parties here, to make sure that mental health services are being improved across Wales for better outcomes for the population of Wales?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you. You're probably aware, James, that there is a duty to review the mental health Measure. We weren't able to progress that because of the pressures during the pandemic, and the delay in reviewing the mental health Measure was something that was agreed with the Wales Alliance for Mental Health—the third sector bodies that we meet with. So, they were on board with that decision to delay that. We are recommencing work around the duty to review the mental health Measure, so we are taking that work forward.
But what I would also say is that we've got a UK Government's that's reforming the Mental Health Act 1983. At the moment, we're waiting for them to progress that; that will involve us working with the UK Government on how that is implemented in Wales. We're also waiting for the UK Government to take forward their legislation on liberty protection safeguards—the deadlines for that have continued to move. So, at the moment, we're poised, ready to go on that; we've got large amounts of funding set aside to implement it. So, I do think we have to be mindful of the other legislative pressures that we face, and the capacity within the system to deal with that.
What I also think is that it is vitally important that we focus on delivery, and the most important thing for me is making sure that people get access to services, and I think we have to bear that in mind when we're considering any further reviews.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Llywydd. The cost-of-living crisis is having a significant impact on our health service. From increasing health inequalities to preventing people from being warm and fed this winter, the NHS is showing signs of extreme strain and crisis. The strain is also evident in those who work in public health. The nurses' strike, backed by Plaid Cymru, has been well-documented in this Senedd. I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight the impact upon those working in the sector of substance use and addiction treatment. Earlier this month, ITV Wales reported on the cost-of-living struggles of peers with the drug and alcohol service. They spoke to Vinnie, a peer and recovered addict, who had been clean for three years, about his struggle to survive on his salary. He said,
'I'm relying on food banks, it's really tough, I don't have the heating on at home. I'm literally scared to turn on my heating, to turn on my gas because I'm just dreading that next bill, because I just haven't got (the money).'
Vinnieis not unique. Because of his history of drugs, he and many like him are vulnerable. I fear that the stress of the cost-of-living crisis will push many people like him off the platform of sobriety. Do you recognise the problems that exist within this sector, and do you have plans to remedy it with improved terms and conditions? I hope that you agree, especially given the alarming increase in drug and alcohol deaths, that we cannot afford to allow drug and alcohol services to be run on the cheap.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Peredur. And can I take this opportunity to place on record my gratitude to the people who work as peer supporters in Wales? They do a phenomenal job. I certainly don't think we could be accused of running drug and alcohol services on the cheap. As you're aware, not only have we protected substance misuse funding in Wales, but we've actually increased the funding, and that includes for our peer-led services, which we've had to find extra money within Welsh Government funding for, because some of that funding came from the European Union, and obviously we lost that money. I do recognise, of course, that this is an incredibly tough time for everyone, including people working in the third sector, who we are really grateful to. That's why the Government has placed so much focus on using whatever levers we have to tackle the cost-of-living crisis, and that's why we are continuing, despite the very straitened circumstances that we face, to invest in substance misuse services, to help get people through this very difficult time.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you. We're still waiting for the Minister's workforce plan, which was promised for this month; given that there are a few hours left in the day, we remain in hope that it will come in time. Oh, there are thumbs up there, so that's good. Can you confirm that you and your officials were heavily involved in devising this plan? This is a key question, because mental health support has often compared badly with other areas of the NHS when it comes to priorities and funding. Improving access to psychological therapies was meant to be a key aim of the original 'Together for Mental Health' strategy, and has been a priority within each of the delivery plans, yet over the last 10 years, numerous reports have raised concerns about the access to psychological therapies on the back of substance misuse and addiction and those who are vulnerable to that. It's a real concern.
Despite some improvements, hundreds of people are still waiting beyond the 26-week target to access support. These are people who often need urgent treatment to prevent their mental health spiralling out of control. Does the Minister intend to reduce the target from 26 weeks and what steps are being taken to address the situation of those waiting a considerable time in some health board areas? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Peredur. I think you saw the Minister give a positive signal there that things are going well in terms of the workforce plan that she's taking forward. We also have a separate workforce plan for mental health, which is being developed by Health Education and Improvement Wales and Social Care Wales. That was launched in November. I'm really pleased that, because of the extra £75 million funding made available by the Welsh Government this year for mental health, including substance misuse, we are able to fund that workforce plan, which does come with a very hefty price tag in full. That will enable some immediate short-term actions to be taken on the workforce pressures that we face, including things like the training and employment of clinical associates in psychology, who aren't fully qualified in a doctorate for psychology, but are able to offer some psychological therapies, and access to psychology is a key part of that workforce plan.
I note the comments that you've made about waiting times for psychology services and, clearly, there is more work to do in that space. The NHS delivery unit is currently undertaking a review of psychological therapies for Welsh Government. That report is due in March and, as with their other reports on mental health, will provide us with a set of recommendations to make sure that we can improve services in a sustainable way.
The other point that I would make, Peredur, is that we are spending huge sums of money in Wales on open-access tier 0 and tier 1 support. There is online cognitive behavioural therapy available right across Wales for a range of lower level mental health issues. We've got our call helpline that's available 24 hours a day, and we are making really good progress with our 111 'press 2 for mental health', which is operating everywhere now in Wales and will be 24/7 by the spring. I think that will be a real game changer in terms of the 'no wrong door' approach to mental health.

Hospital Discharges

Alun Davies AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on how health and social care providers are working together to manage hospital discharges effectively? OQ59043

Julie Morgan AC: Effective working across health and social care is essential in managing hospital discharges effectively. Working in partnership has been a real feature of our approach to the challenges the system is facing this winter and has resulted in an additional 595 community beds, which are aiding hospital discharge.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. It's certainly true to say that partnership working is a feature of the response of the Welsh Government. I'm not convinced it's a successful feature, I have to say. There's almost the equivalent of a whole hospital full of patients in the Aneurin Bevan health board area who, at any time, are able to be discharged into the community, but we're not able to do so. My feeling is that, all too often, we are putting enormous pressures on members of staff and service leaders to work around structures that are created, rather than to create structures that provide coherence in the delivery of services.
It appears to me, and I've been sitting here for perhaps too many years now, but, it appears to me—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] I'll carry on. It appears to me that it is time to bring these services together to create a single, coherent social care organisation that is able to deliver the care that people need and is able to support our professionals in the way they're delivering their job. Is it too late to recognise, Minister, that the number of boards and partnerships and other structures we've put in place simply are not delivering the care that people have the right to and deserve?

Julie Morgan AC: I thank the Member for that question. I'd like to emphasise how closely the Minister and I have been working to bring health and social care together. We have fortnightly meetings—the care action committee—where we drive developments that are jointly between health and social care, and that has resulted in 595 community beds, which are created by the local authorities, by the health boards, by them putting funding in—pooling funding. These 595 beds have had a really tremendous effect in enabling people to be discharged from hospital. In terms of where we go with social care, I think you know that we have a commitment to a national care service. We are taking the first steps in doing that in creating a national office, which we hope will be up now within the next year, and we're also having a national framework. Those are the first steps towards creating a national care service, which I agree is urgently needed.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, the fact that we don’t always have a smooth transition between healthcare and social care has placed our NHS under a tremendous burden. Nowhere is this more evident than in end-of-life care. At the cross-party group on hospices and palliative care last week, we heard that accessing out-of-hours services was diabolical. A carer took over 20 hours to get through to the 111 service during a weekend just to discuss medication. It is little wonder, therefore, that one in every 14 patients attending A&E is an end-of-life patient. Minister, what steps is your Government taking to improve end-of-life services in the community, so that patients, carers and care homes are not forced to access acute health services?

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Altaf Hussain for that very important question. It is, of course, vital that people needing to access end-of-life services are not put in the position where they are desperately trying to get information, particularly over a weekend. I’m aware of those sorts of situations, which I have experienced. A programme should be set up so that people, over weekends, for example, who are receiving end-of-life care—that there is specific cover for those periods. I know that that is done in many cases. People should not be left in that position. The Welsh Government does, as you know, put funding towards hospices and help in the community, a particular percentage. The voluntary sector provides a lot of money as well, and those services are very impressive services. I’m well aware of the services provided in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan, for example, for end-of-life care at home. But obviously, I think, we must always do more to strive to improve that situation.

Question 4 [OQ59028] has been withdrawn.

The Condition of Hospital Estates

Gareth Davies AS: 5. What assessment has the Minister made of the condition of hospital estates across Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? OQ59042

Eluned Morgan AC: Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is responsible for the condition of its own estate. It can submit business cases to the Welsh Government for capital funding for its assessed priorities, which have to be considered against the backdrop of significant capital pressures across NHS Wales.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for your response, Minister. I'm sure you're able to anticipate what I'm going to say, as it was reported in the BBC last week that only 62 per cent of buildings owned by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board are classed as operationally safe. In Abergele hospital, which serves my constituents well, only 15 per cent of the building complies with modern day health and safety standards. The reason for this is primarily that the board has many old buildings with high running costs and old infrastructure that haven't moved with the times or modern-day health needs. My question is: if you look at this objectively, Minister, do you think that in the long term it would help the board make estate savings by investing more now in new building infrastructure, such as north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl, so that we can ensure better healthcare for local people in a way that also lowers running costs and is environmentally friendlier, allowing us to invest more in front-line services?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I would love to invest more in our capital estate, but unfortunately our funding from the UK Government, when it comes to capital budgets, has not increased, and that does make life very difficult for us. What I will say is that over the past 10 years Betsi has received £455 million in capital expenditure, which is about 14 per cent of the Welsh total. That includes about £170 million on Ysbyty Glan Clwyd; £20 million on neonatal in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd; in Ysbyty Gwynedd, £14 million for the emergency department; £5 million in Flint; £4 million in Blaenau Ffestiniog; and £5 million in Tywyn. I could go on and on. The point is, we are trying to do our best. You do have to prioritise in these difficult circumstances, but obviously there has been an increase in the backlog figures, because, as you say, of the age of many of those major and acute sites, which is why what we have asked is that the health board considers what they think the priorities should be, and then obviously we as a Government will make a judgment after that.

Health Services in Preseli Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve health services in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ59024

Eluned Morgan AC: Hywel Dda University Health Board is responsible for the provision of safe, sustainable high-quality healthcare services for its local population, based on the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. As you know, there are concerns over primary healthcare services in Solva in my constituency, following the news that the GP partner has announced her retirement. Hywel Dda University Health Board has held some public engagement on this development and was writing to all patients registered at the surgery, and that's extremely important, as the local community must be consulted on how they think provision can continue to be delivered in the future. This of course follows on from Neyland and Johnston surgery in my constituency, which is now under health board control because of a retirement at that practice as well. Minister, people in my constituency are concerned that access to a GP in parts of Pembrokeshire is becoming increasingly difficult. Can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to address this matter? What work are you doing with the local health board to ensure that people can access a local GP wherever they live in Pembrokeshire?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'm very aware of the situation in Solva. I can't go very far without somebody bringing it up with me when I'm home. I'm pleased to say that I met with the chair and chief executive of Hywel Dda health board on Thursday, and I was able to discuss this issue with them. As you noted, there has been an engagement with the community already. It is very difficult, because obviously we could put all the measures we want in place, but the key thing is how do you get a GP to go there. There is a real challenge when it comes to single-handed practices. We do have to, perhaps, think creatively about how we go about filling these roles that are quite difficult. I know that we had a real challenge in the past in attracting someone, for example, to Goodwick, where we actually put a £20,000 additional golden handshake on the table and still nobody came. These are not easy to resolve. You can't force people to go to these places. But obviously, our approach is to try and make sure that these people don't work alone and that they have a team around them. But even then, what we find works best is when you have a community of GPs working together. That's obviously difficult in places like Solva, so we just have to try and be creative and work with the community. But I know that the health board is going to make every effort to see what they can put in place by the termination date of 31 March.

NHS Dental Care

Jane Dodds AS: 7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce waiting times for NHS dental care? OQ59040

Eluned Morgan AC: Under their contract reform arrangements, dental practices focus on prevention and needs-based care rather than providing routine check-ups every six months to all patients. As a result of this shift, more than 123,000 new patients have gained access to an NHS dentist thus far this year.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for that answer.

Jane Dodds AS: You'll know that NHS dentistry is something that I've raised with you time and time again in this Siambr. I'm concerned to hear again that we're hearing about these additional appointments—120,000 we've heard before, and I think 130,000 you said this time—

Eluned Morgan AC: It's 123,000.

Jane Dodds AS: It's 123,000, I beg your pardon. Thank you for the correction. In my conversations with dentists and the British Dental Association, I hear that they cannot actually deliver those appointments for new patients because practices do not have the capacity. Existing patients, they say, are facing further delays because new patients are likely to need significant follow-up work. I'm told that many practices, unable to meet their contracted targets, are having their funding clawed back by health boards and, as a result of the uncertainties, are reducing their commitment to or even walking away from NHS dental work altogether. I wonder if I could ask you, when you say that there are 120,000 new appointments, are these actually new appointments or just the equivalent funding? Will you commit to meeting with the British Dental Association in order to discuss this further? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Those are 123,000 new appointments that have actually taken place. There is a lot of noise around this, but these are the facts, that actually we have 74,000 new patients who are adults who have been seen, and 49,000 new children who have been seen who weren't being seen before. Of course, when you introduce something new, there is a little bit of difficulty and tension in the system. Obviously, if we're going to pay people to do a job, they need to deliver on that job, and if they don't deliver on that job, yes, we are going to claw back money. I'm not going to apologise for that, because we are the guardians of the taxpayers' money as well. That is the deal. You pay for a service, if you don't deliver the service you're not going to get paid. So, they may not like that, but I'm afraid that is the situation. The fact is that, actually, fewer than 20 contracts have been handed back out of the 413 that exist in Wales. So, as I said, there is a lot of noise, but in reality, most people—the vast, vast majority of dentists—have moved over to this new contract.
Of course, it is easier to do a six-monthly check-up on somebody with healthy teeth than to see somebody new who perhaps hasn't been seen for a long time and then to have the need to see somebody in more detail afterwards. But we are doing this very deliberately. We need people to see dentists who haven't seen a dentist in a long time. So, I'm not going to apologise for the contract that we've put in place. What I will say is that I am, of course, happy to meet with the BDA—I know you have very strong connections with them. But perhaps we do need to just make sure that there is a real understanding of what we're trying to achieve here. We're trying to achieve this in the face of very severe financial constraints where we have to maximise the ability of the taxpayer to get as much as they can from the system.

The Provision of Eye Care

Natasha Asghar AS: 8. What action is the Minister taking to improve the provision of eye care in Wales? OQ59029

Eluned Morgan AC: The Welsh Government is committed to improving healthcare services in Wales, and improving provision for people with poor eye health is a priority. This work is already under way through implementation of new optometry contracted terms of service, which I announced in a written statement issued in September last year.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks, Minister. I'd like to ask you about plans to reduce financial help for some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in Wales towards the cost of their NHS glasses. I understand the proposal is to lower the current £39.10 contribution for children and adults on some benefits to £22. You claim the amount was agreed with the group that represents optometrists in Wales, however Optometry Wales says that, as a negotiating team, they were not in favour of supporting the changes to the voucher system proposed by the Welsh Government. Indeed, in a statement, they said the plans have caused significant concern among practitioners who are worried about the level of support patients on means-tested benefits will be able to access under the new contracts. The Federation of Ophthalmic and Dispensing Opticians has also expressed concerns that patients who depend on means-tested benefits will be worse off when accessing essential vision correction and warn of a significant reduction in domiciliary capacity, which will worsen eye health outcomes going forward. So, what assessment have you made, Minister, about the impact of this policy decision on the eyecare of patients, given the current economic circumstances that we're all experiencing? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. The new Wales general ophthalmic services voucher value reflects the actual cost of providing services and glasses through the introduction of appropriately costed fees. What we have made sure is that those most in need continue to receive the most appropriate service, and I would encourage the Member to look again at Optometry Wales's website because actually, they did put out a statement, which they subsequently withdrew—I think that statement was posted by the UK body rather than the Welsh body, with whom we have a very good relationship where we've worked through these things. We really are at the cutting edge of ophthalmic services in the United Kingdom, making sure that we do things in a very different way in partnership, so we were quite surprised to see the statement that was issued, but they have withdrawn that statement, following conversations.

Recruitment and Retention in the NHS

Heledd Fychan AS: 9. What steps is the Minister taking to improve recruitment and retention in the NHS? OQ59056

Eluned Morgan AC: We are increasing staffing numbers through a range of recruitment and attraction approaches, including international recruitment and record investment in education and training programmes. Improving staff retention in the NHS and the sustainability of our workforce is paramount.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. When I've visited hospitals and picket lines in my region, staff have shared with me time and again the immense stress and pressure that they're under and the fact that many of their experienced colleagues are leaving on a weekly basis. They can no longer cope with the pressure that they're under, the stress of not being able to give the best possible care to all patients due to the scale of demand, and the stress as well as the day-to-day working patterns put in place. You and I both heard harrowing evidence in an event here in the Senedd from staff in our emergency departments describing the daily experience of going to work and how they're signing leaving cards for colleagues on a weekly basis.
Time and time and again, you say that there are more staff working for the NHS than ever before, but obviously on the ground, the story is very different. So, why is there this difference between the day-to-day experiences of staff working on the front line who tell us about experienced colleagues leaving, but you keep telling us that there are more and more staff available to the health service? So, what's being done to address this dreadful situation? Because we are saying that there are more staff, but we're not recognising how much expertise is being lost on a weekly basis. And what's the plan to address this?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, it is true that we have more staff than ever employed in the NHS in Wales. What you will be aware of is that, actually, we have never seen demands on the service like this, and if we're honest, that demand is only going to go in one direction as we have an ageing population. The demand is going to increase. So, I think we've got to be very honest about the strain on the system currently, but actually, we do need to have a very genuine conversation amongst ourselves, with the public as well, about what the implications of this are for the future.
What I have done is to develop a national workforce implementation plan, and I'm pleased to say that I'm going to meet the deadline that I set myself, so it is going to be published today. Within that, there will be a whole series of actions that we plan to put in place in order to make sure that we can do more to retain the staff that we've got; to look at how we can ethically recruit nurses from overseas; to look at how we can deploy a reservist force in Wales; to look at how we can build up and develop the existing network of volunteers; and how we can create an all-Wales collaborative bank to make sure that we can create some more support to avoid paying very expensive agency nurses.

Question 10, Vikki Howells. Question 10, Vikki Howells.

Ah, yes, you're unmuted now. Carry on, Vikki.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Llywydd.

Optometry Services

Vikki Howells AC: 10. How is the Welsh Government working to improve optometry services in Wales? OQ59030

Eluned Morgan AC: Welsh Government continues to work with stakeholders to improve optometry services. The intended benefits brought forward by the new optometry contracted terms of service will provide a service framework fit for the future. This will be underpinned by the continued education and training of our primary care optometry workforce.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I recently visited Gwynn's Opticians in Aberdare to find out more about independent prescribers and the new optometry contract. I was really impressed to hear about the 70 or so independent prescribers and the work that they can already do in terms of treating and diagnosing conditions like glaucoma and macular degeneration, thanks to a fully funded training programme from the Welsh Government. We know that reform of the NHS to relieve pressure on our hospitals by facilitating the delivery of additional services within local communities is a key priority for the Welsh Government, so can you give us an update on preparations ahead of the official launch of the contract this summer?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. This area is one of the areas I think we should be most proud of where we've been really innovative in Wales. What we're doing is using the skills of highly skilled workers who had those innate skills; these are people who've been very well trained, but we weren't using some of their skills. We've upskilled them even further in order to make sure that they can, as you say, like Gwynn's Opticians, give that independent prescribing to the population. That is giving support within the community. One of our key actions in our manifesto was to make sure that we improve access at the primary care level—this is part of that.
So, what we know is that demand for ophthalmic services is going to increase significantly over the next 20 years. It's back to that ageing population. None of us are going to duck this; we're going to have to confront it and we're going to have to discuss it. We're going to have to understand that the demands on the service are going to increase massively, and we need to have a conversation about that.But, what I am pleased to say is that, following the optometry contract negotiations, new service models and associated costs have been agreed for implementation of the new optometry contracted terms of service, which are now going to be stepped up over the next three years. Certain aspects of the reform will require changes to regulations before they can come into force, so there will be a few tweaks we're going to have to make legally to make some of this possible, but we're on it, and we're hoping to make sure that that is going to be possible, so that Gwynn's Opticians and others can help us even more in the future.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Topical Questions

There are no topical questions today.

6. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: Interim Report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales

We move to item 6, a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on the interim report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. I call on the Minister for the Constitution to make the statement—Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Eighteen months ago, we established the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. We asked the commission to consider and develop options for fundamental reform of the constitutional structures of the United Kingdom, in which Wales remains an integral part. We also asked them to consider and develop all progressive options to strengthen Welsh democracy and to deliver improvements for the people of Wales. The commission's task was to produce an interim report by the end of last year, with a full report by the end of this year.
Before Christmas, I was pleased to inform Members that the commission had met the first of its objectives and had published its interim report. Today, I'd like to welcome that interim report, and I'd like to place on record my thanks to the commission’s co-chairs, Dr Rowan Williams and Professor Laura McAllister, and all the members of the commission for their work in producing the report. The interim report is a substantial one. It is an authoritative and well-evidenced document. There was an excellent public outreach and consultation process. While the commission’s work continues, it has come to an important conclusion: the status quo is 'no longer a stable basis for the future'.

Mick Antoniw AC: Llywydd, the commission is taking forward its work at a time when the tensions in the wider constitutional structures of the United Kingdom are increasing and our inter-governmental relationship tested. In that context, it is not surprising at all that the commission has reached the view that neither the status quo nor unwinding devolution are viable options for further consideration.Nor is it surprising that the commission’s work is contributing to a real and growing momentum behind calls for constitutional change. Members will be aware of the report that was recently published by Gordon Brown’s commission on the future of the UK, which made a series of radical proposals for constitutional reform, and which references the work of the independent commission.
Llywydd, I believe that change is inevitable, and I believe that the commission’s work is, and will be, a vital contribution to the discussion already taking place. In my written statement, I encouraged Members, and indeed anyone with an interest in our constitution, to consider the report, and I hope Members will have done so.
On that point, I want to highlight the commission’s work to engage with the public. Given the direct impact that our governance arrangements will have on people’s lives, we asked the commission to engage widely with civic society and the Welsh public to raise awareness and to build a genuinely national conversation. Their initial consultation has resulted in over 2,000 responses, and I am particularly grateful to the commission for the innovative way they have engaged with communities through their community engagement fund.
If the commission’s solutions are to be workable and command support, they must be grounded in the experience of the lives of those whose lives they will affect. Indeed, the commission has indicated their intention, in the next phase of their work, to extend their conversation with the people of Wales. As the commission embarks on this next phase, I would encourage Members of all parties in this Chamber to engage with the commission and to encourage engagement from their communities to ensure that the commission’s conclusions are truly reflective of all of the people of Wales. Diolch, Llywydd.

Darren Millar AC: As the only party that seems to believe in the future of the whole of the United Kingdom, and Wales's integral place in it, it's my pleasure to be able to ask some questions in respect of your statement, Minister. The commission, as you will know, we regard as unnecessary. It's unnecessary because it's Wales just looking at one single part of the United Kingdom and not having proper consideration of the views of people elsewhere in the United Kingdom, which I think is a big mistake.
It's an expensive commission—£1.1 million each year over three years. It's supposed to finish its work in December of this year, yet you've already allocated for future budgets in the following financial years, even beyond this current financial year, for two years, another £1.1 million. Can you explain to us why the commission, even after it has completed its work, still needs £1.1 million per year in the financial year 2024-25?
I've paid great attention to the work of the commission; I've read the report. I was, frankly, astonished that it examined what it regarded as the centralised power system in England, but it had no regard whatsoever for the centralising of powers here in Wales. There was no talk of any potential for devolution to the regions of Wales—my part of Wales, which feels, for example, north Wales, so disconnected with life here in Cardiff Bay and, in particular, Cathays Park, because of the ignorance of the Welsh Government towards that particular region. Can I ask, will you give some direction to the commission to actually look at devolution within Wales in order that we can get a proper decentralised approach to the governance of this country, rather than the centralised approach that your Government has taken over the past two-odd decades?
In addition to that, the report quite rightly talks about the importance of direct accountability in a democracy. Of course, we all know that the Labour Party, in cahoots with Plaid Cymru, is trying to strip that direct accountability away through the introduction of Senedd reforms that will empower political parties over members of the public in terms of whom they can directly elect to represent them in this Chamber. I know backbenchers on the Labour benches agree with me in that respect, because closed-list systems take away power from the people and put it into the pockets of political party leaders. That's the wrong approach,as far as we’re concerned, and I think you should ask the commission to examine and give its view on the proposals for Senedd reform that have been hatched between the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru, because I don’t think, frankly, that they would find them to be beneficial to the people of Wales.
You made reference to Gordon Brown’s commission on the future of the UK—a Labour Party document, not a document that has any more gravity outside of the Labour Party than the gravity that you seem to attach to it. Wales, of course, was an afterthought in that document. It talked heavily about the situation in Scotland. It talked about the regions of England. Wales barely got a mention in the document, and in fact the mention it did get completely disagreed with the view of the Labour Party here in Wales, which wanted to see the full devolution of the criminal justice system. Of course, Gordon Brown disagreed with you. I don’t know why you’re applauding him now in this Chamber and saying what a wonderful piece of work he’s done, when, frankly, he clearly didn’t share that piece of work with you before it was published. He even made references to the 'Welsh Assembly Government'. He didn’t talk about the ‘Welsh Government’. The ‘Welsh Assembly Government’ is a term that we abandoned over 10 years ago. This shows how out of date and out of touch Gordon Brown is, frankly, with the people of Wales and the people in this Senedd, including his own colleagues in the Labour Party.
Then you talk about public engagement. My goodness—they’ve had 2,000 responses so far that have contributed, through the questionnaire, to the work of the commission. Fifty-five per cent of those, apparently, supported independence. Now, that’s clearly not reflective of the views of the people of Wales, because we’re consistently told that support for independence is well below 55 per cent, extraordinarily below. So, I’m afraid that this commission seems to be talking only to those people that some of its members want to listen to. Can you tell us how you will encourage the commission to reach out beyond that navel-gazing part of society that seems to be obsessed with constitutional tinkering here in Wales so that we can ensure that there’s a proper representative view put to it of the views of people across this country?
And finally, I want to say to you, Minister, that I think it’s time that we invested the resources that are going to this commission into our NHS, into our schools and into our public services. You keep claiming that you’ve got no money to invest in some of these things, you keep claiming that you’ve got no money to be able to put into the pockets of our nurses and other public sector workers. Here’s some money. If it’s burning a hole in your pocket, spend it in a different direction.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I'd like to thank the Member for his contribution, and it was very similar to the contribution he made about 18 months, two years ago. It hasn’t changed at all. It seems to me you haven’t realised that the debate has moved on. We’ve had the debate over the merits of the commission and the purpose to it, and what we’re now having is a commission that is actually engaging about its work. I would have hoped that there would be a slightly more constructive contribution to the work. I understand you disagree with the commission and you didn’t want to see it established. You don’t think the purpose of its work is important. But that is not the view of the majority of this Senedd.
Can I just say, firstly, in terms of your first comments with regard to the whole of the UK, the First Minister and the Welsh Government and the Welsh Labour Party has made it absolutely clear what the Welsh Labour position is? And that is that it is in support of the union. It believes Wales is better off in the union, in a prosperous union, but believes that the union is in desperate need of reform. That reform, ironically, is very much recognised—the need for that reform—across political parties in Westminster, and, when you talk about constitutional tinkering, well, if this is tinkering, all we need to look at is the raft after raft after raft of legislation that’s going through Westminster that impacts on this place—the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, which is all about constitutional reform; the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, which, again, is essentially about reform; the suggestion now that they’re going to resurrect the bill of rights, which is, again, about constitutional reform; the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, which is about undermining devolution and constitutional reform; even the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill has significant constitutional implications.
The constitution is important to people’s lives because it is about how power is exercised, how it is distributed and the sort of governance we have, and if you don’t recognise that there is a real precipice for our democracy in terms of people's belief in democratic systems, then I believe you're failing even those you represent in respect of the need for change. I believe that the commission is necessary, because I believe Wales has to have a voice within this process. There has to be an examination, an exploration, of the issues that are important to Wales, and we have to be able to express those ourselves, and that is what the work of the commission is about.
I understand the points you make and you're perfectly entitled to make those particular points; in fact, I hope you've made them to the commission, because I understand you have attended the commission to give evidence. I understand from the commission that they originally asked to meet with the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies, were initially directed to Mark Isherwood but since have met with yourself. But, equally so, Simon Hart, as Secretary of State for Wales, has given evidence to the commission, and the UK Government levelling-up Minister, Neil O'Brien, has also given. So, I think it is an important recognition, after the hyperbole, that I think there are people on the Conservatives side who are taking the commission seriously and who are engaging, because, if they didn't think it was an important event, whether they agree with it or not, I don't think they would have wanted to participate in it.
Just to say that the commission is, of course, independent. Its terms of reference were well debated within this Chamber. It is not for us, having established an independent commission, to direct that commission and tell it what it is to do. But, having read the report and having had a meeting with the commission, I'm impressed with the work that is now ongoing, which is very, very serious, in-depth and detailed engagement. I was very impressed with the interim report, because the importance of the interim report, unlike often the case with interim reports, is that it doesn't actually say, 'This is an interim report and these are the conclusions we're going to reach in due course.' It has basically set out the variety of opinions there and is going out to actually engage, and I think that engagement is important. I believe deep down in your heart, after you've made the publicity statements that you wanted to make, that, deep down, you really do believe in the importance of this commission and the importance of actually engaging with it, even if you don't think it should be here.

Adam Price AC: I agree with you, Counsel General, that the existence and the work of the commission reflect the new enthusiasm that there is in Wales around our national conversation in terms of our constitutional future, and it's also contributing to that momentum. And that can be seen in a range of different ways and reflects a range of different views, perhaps. One example over the past weekend—as I've already referred to earlier this afternoon, I attended the Melin Drafod summit on independence; 200 people representing different parties, different parts of society and different parts of Wales, discussing independence, and publishing, as part of the summit, their new study on the funding question in relation to independence, which is one of the questions that the commission's interim report raises in the context of assessing the viability of independence, and that study responds to the Plaid Cymru presentation to the commission and the work specifically done by Professor John Doyle from Dublin City University, which demonstrated that it would be possible for Wales to afford independence, that there isn't as great a funding gap as had previously been thought, and the work of Melin Drafod confirmed that and has done further work on that basis.
So, there is civic enthusiasm and energy around the question of the constitutional future of Wales, which is similar, I think, to the period prior to the 1997 referendum. And it is the end of one period and the beginning of another, and the conversation that we're having is what that new chapter is, and in what direction are we moving. I think it is an opportunity for us to rejuvenate our democracy as we face the constitutional and broader democratic crisis across the UK. The interim report provides three possible options that could be looked into further on the constitutional future of Wales: first, safeguarding and strengthening devolution, federalism, secondly, and then independence. It's clear which of the three options my party would favour, but may I ask the Counsel General to tell us which of the three options the Welsh Government would support as the best option at this point? And in that context, is there a difference between the view of the Welsh Labour Government, Welsh Labour as a party, and as part of the wider British Labour Party in Wales, and the policy of the UK Labour Party? Or is there an expectation that the policy of the Welsh Labour Government, Welsh Labour, will decide on the policy of the Labour Party more generally? And what's the inter-relationship—? Now, you mentioned the Gordon Brown commission and his recommendations to the leadership of the UK Labour Party. What's the inter-relationship between that process of policy creation at the UK level in terms of the Labour Party and the work of the commission? In the case of Scotland, in the constitutional convention there, which had such an influence on the devolution process in Scotland, the upshot of the convention and the final report did have a direct impact on the policy of the Labour Party; it was adopted as policy. Is that the kind of inter-relationship that you anticipate with the final report of this commission, that that would be respected by the leadership of the Labour Party at the UK level? And would you encourage that as the best way forward, of course referring to the fact that the Gordon Brown commission report didn't say much about Wales and the fact that the work of the constitutional commission was still ongoing?
The constitutional commission does note a number of areas where there have been calls for further devolution. We've heard reference to justice and policing, for example, but it lists some others: employment, where work is ongoing by the TUC; benefits; the Crown Estate; the railways and so on and so forth, and broadcasting too. And as part of your presentation to the next stage, do you intend to list those areas that you as a Government would wish to see the next Westminster Government devolving powers to Wales? And as a Government that has said that you espouse the right to self-determination, would you want to include in that list the right to call a referendum on independence or on the constitutional future, in whichever direction, that that right shouldn't be reserved to Westminster but that it should be devolved here, where it should be, in the hands of the elected representatives of the people of Wales?

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member very much for those very detailed questions—a large number of questions. I'll do my best to try and answer them. Perhaps I could just preface them by—. Of course, I do actually want to wait and see what the outcome of the independent commission's report is. Within our respective political parties, within our communities, within our organisations, of course we all have views. We've all been on this devolution journey for many years in different ways. I was very involved in the 1979 devolution referendum, the one no-one seems to mention, and the outcome of that was depressing. It was—. And we thought we might never ever have another referendum or that we might not ever achieve the establishment of the Assembly and then the Senedd. So, we have come an enormously long way. And it's fair to say I think, within all political parties, even within Plaid, within Welsh Labour, within UK Labour, there are a whole variety of differing views as to the principles of devolution, decentralisation of power, how it should happen and what the structure should be, just as there are differences in terms of what the UK should look like in the future. What I can say is, since I came to Wales in 1973, there is a confidence in Wales, there is a transformation in Wales, a confidence in the identity, in the language, in Wales's place within the UK and within the world, that has grown beyond anything, I think, that was ever conceivable back in those particular times. A lot of that is down to what has actually happened.

Mick Antoniw AC: As far as the issue of—. I mean, I understand the position you have with independence. For me, the main issue has always actually been the issue of subsidiarity. All countries and economies have a certain degree of interdependency; that was one of the functions of the European Union. And, in many ways, when you start taking the terminology out of terms, in actual fact, there is actually quite a lot of common ground. I think, probably across all political parties, we want to see decision making as close to people as possible. Darren Millar made a very valid point in that devolution isn't just about the creation of parliaments; it is about the empowerment of people and communities, and that means we have to look equally so at how devolution takes place within our own communities and within our own Government. What the role of parliaments is—I think there is a very serious question there for Westminster, but I think equally so for Holyrood and for this place as well. I think one of the advantages of the independent commission is that I think it will begin to address this; it will engage over those. And each individual political party and people individually will have to consider what conclusions and what views the report comes with in order to formulate, ultimately, their own views as to the way they see the way forward, not just about aspiration, but in terms of practically how you achieve change and what that change should be.
You raised very properly the issue of finance and the issues of viability, and I'm very aware of the work that was done by the Wales Governance Centre as well. There are, of course, important views to be taken into account in terms of, within the UK, the role of tax, the role of welfare, but the issues around the redistribution of wealth. Barnett, after all, is a redistributive. It may be a very inadequate, outdated and ineffective way of redistribution, but it does have that particular role; that is one of the common features in terms of one of the functions of the UK.
Equally so, in terms of my own opinions on this, well, I'm not really here to give my own personal opinions. You're well aware of the work that I was involved in with regard to radical federalism and so on, as to what the future and the options might be. But, I think, what I am here to do is to really talk about the importance of the commission and how we have to take that work seriously and how we have to engage with it, and I think how we have to assess the work it does, listen to what its conclusions are, to engage with it, and then give very serious consideration to the final outcome.
Can I just say, in terms of the—? You'll be aware, of course, about what the Welsh Government's position has been around the 'Reforming the Union' documents. The two versions that have been published actually set out the sort of evidence that the First Minister gave to the commission, and we'll wait to see what they make of that.
With regard to the Gordon Brown report, can I say what I thought were the two most important things within that? Firstly, that there were no doors closed in terms of change. He said that there's absolutely no reason why Wales shouldn't have exactly the same powers as Scotland. He also says that subsidiarity means that decision making should be taken as close to people as possible. And he also outlines within that, and recognises, I think, the democratic precipice that we've been approaching as more and more people lose confidence in the electoral system. But there was also, within that, a very important deference to the fact that we have the independent commission, that it wouldn't be appropriate for them, within the Gordon Brown report, to list all the different things that he thought they should decide for Wales, but rather the fact that there should be constructive engagement with the Senedd and with the Welsh Government once the independent commission has completed its work. I think that is exactly the appropriate thing to have done. It would have been totally wrong to have basically said, 'Whatever the independent commission does is irrelevant because these are the things that are good for you.' I think I've said on numerous occasions that it should not be the case that the future of Wales and Wales's role within the UK or wherever would be decided by a commission elsewhere and outwith of Wales.
With regard to the issue of a right to a referendum, I support very much the view that's been given by the First Minister over the years: any party that is elected that says within its manifesto that it intends to call a referendum should have the right to have that referendum. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome this debate this afternoon. It will not come as any surprise that, as Chair of the committee with constitutional matters as a core part of its remit, I am contributing today. As a committee, we have not considered the report in detail, but we have discussed it briefly last week in advance of today's statement. My focus this afternoon will be to highlight matters within the interim report that are likely to be of interest to my committee in the months ahead.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I note the commission’s conclusion that there are,
'significant problems with the way Wales is currently governed',
and that it has identified 10 immediate pressure points on the current settlement. Now, it’s interesting that these mainly relate to
'relations between the UK and Welsh governments'—
a view that indeed chimes with some of our observations as a committee during our scrutiny of legislative consent memoranda. So, it's therefore welcome that, in the next phase of the commission's work, it will explore how these pressures could be addressed, and we'll watch that with interest.
One of these 10 pressure points is, in fact, the fragility of these inter-governmental relations. So, I welcome the commission's intention to take evidence on whether the new machinery, which was established only last year and—indeed, we remember on the committee the Counsel General coming in front of us and it was one of those rare occasions where we saw smiles and optimism that this was a good way forward, but we have yet to see how it will bed in and how effective it will be—that they will take evidence on whether this new machinery, established last year, is indeed improving relations between the Welsh and UK Governments.
In fact, Counsel General, we intend as well to undertake some work on this area of inter-governmental relations ourselves before the summer recess. But, as you know, much of our time is now focused on the scrutiny of legislative consent memoranda and Welsh Government legislation, so our opportunities to be proactive in this area are much more limited than we would like to see. Later this year, we may also have to contend, of course, with the scrutiny of statutory instruments arising from Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. So, we welcome the fact the commission is going to look at this.
I note also that the next stage of the commission’s work will include looking at options for reform of constitutional structures, and exploring with the people of Wales how they believe their country should be governed in the future. And, interestingly, Darren’s point here on devolution and empowering people, extending way beyond the Senedd, is a point well made. So, we will look with interest at what proposals they might come forward with in that respect. So, I look forward to considering the commission's final report and some of these points in particular, which leads me to the following questions, Counsel General.
First of all, how does the work of this commission, as it moves ahead, fit with Welsh Government's constitutional policy agenda? I guess I'm asking you to look forward a little bit and suggest to us what impact this might have in shaping your policy intention, going forward.
Secondly, how might the work of the commission help realise improvements that we know are needed to the Welsh Government's capacity to legislate as we've taken on additional powers, as we develop more legislation, as we legislate also, or seek to steer legislation at the other end of the M4, so, in fact, that we can rely less on that, less on Westminster, and so that legislation in devolved areas is predominantly made in Wales, by the Senedd, for the citizens who elect us for that purpose? Do you anticipate that the commission will actually look at how we can do more of 'legislated in Wales, for Wales'?
And, thirdly, how does the Welsh Government intend to engage with the UK Government on these issues? This is the big question that sits underneath this, particularly given concerns around inter-governmental relations over recent years. And, Counsel General, maybe I could ask you to speculate on how receptive you think the UK Government will be to you coming forward saying, 'We have some good ideas that have come forward; what do you think? Can we work together on this?'
My final point would simply be that I noticed in your statement that you referred to the fact that this constitutional analysis should be grounded, and the commission themselves have said it should be grounded, in the lives of those people whose lives are affected. I entirely agree, because that's what constitutional work should always be focused on: it's how better we and the institutions we have can serve the electorate, rather than some arcane debate. Grounded in people's lives. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Huw, for those comments, and also for the work your committee has done and the work that it will do. Of course, there are a lot of constitutional engagements taking place between the four nations of the UK at the moment, including on the issue of common frameworks, some of which are being considered by committees within this Senedd, and these frameworks, of course, were created on a co-operative basis in order to enable the four nations to work together in the post-Brexit environment. It was unfortunate that the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 came along to undermine them, but the common frameworks work is still ongoing, and we hope that that will begin to take some form of prescience.
The fact that there are significant constitutional problems and prescience is no surprise to us. Those of us who attended the inter-parliamentary forum, which I know you attend now and I've attended previously, on a cross-party basis—I think the chair of Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee then was Sir Bernard Jenkin—were consistently saying unanimously that the current relationships don't work, that there are major constitutional problems that need to be addressed. So, this is not something that is of partisan nature. The question is how you actually resolve those, and that is of course where differing views come in, and, again, I think it's why the work of the commission is so important.
If we take seriously our democracy in this country, if we take seriously the threats to it, the challenge to it, the challenges of participation or non-participation or how people perceive the political governance that we have within this country, if we fail to address that, we are really letting down future generations of people within Wales and within the United Kingdom. The reason why we have a specific Welsh commission is not in some form of nationalistic or isolationist process, but because it's important we explore ourselves our own role within that, and recognise where Wales fits within that and what those particular options are, in what is a very changing environment, particularly post Brexit.
You raise a number of issues with regard to inter-governmental relations that are really important. It's certainly true that there have been a lot of delays for a whole variety of reasons, which we are all familiar with, as to Government, particularly in Westminster, being able to get on with its job, and I don't think we've actually overcome all of those yet. But there are inter-governmental, inter-ministerial meetings now taking place. The meeting of the First Ministers and the Prime Minister, that took place and they've agreed a number of areas of work. The body below that, the Interministerial Standing Committee, is a body that will be meeting, in fact, tomorrow, and I will be chairing that on this occasion. We'll be looking at a whole host of those, so we will be reviewing the state of relations and the various issues around Sewel, around inter-governmental relations, around the implications of things like retained EU law and so on. I think that notification has obviously gone to you, as Chair of your committee, to inform you that that is taking place.
The point you made that was very important was that it's about exploring with the people of Wales, and you're absolutely right. The quality and the strength of the work the independent commission is doing will be dependent, to some extent, on the extent to which it is able to do that engagement. I was quite encouraged by the innovative ways and the different assemblies and groups and so on that are being set up to achieve that. We know it is not easy. But it is important for me that it does happen.
How will the UK Government react? Well, I suppose it depends which UK Government we're talking about. With the current UK Government, relations are difficult in the sense that the arrangements with regard to good processes for legislation are still not in place. Too much legislation is coming forward where there is no engagement. The Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill is a classic example: massive implications for us and very little engagement. The retained EU law Bill—a significant impact on us, on thousands of pieces of legislation, standards, environmental issues, and food standard issues and many other areas as well—is one where we were promised the world in terms of engagement, and the engagement was minimal. We still do not have any clear indications as to the scale. There is work that is going on between officials, so it is getting better. But all the issues we raised with regard to the sunset clause, with regard to concurrent powers, and so on, I raised a year ago, and they've still not been addressed. I will be pressing on those particular issues.
How will the UK Government react? Well, I think a Government that takes seriously the governance of the UK and the hegemony within the UK has to take all of these seriously, and I hope that will be the case. It is, obviously, a difficult environment, but we will carry on working as co-operatively as we can, setting out the views we have from the Welsh Government in terms of the direction of the reform, what good parliamentary processes are, how democracy should work better, and we will give very serious consideration, as I know your committee will, once the independent commission's report has been published.

We're almost out of time for this statement. I have quite a few Members who are keen to ask questions, so if we can keep questions and answers as succinct as possible, then I'll get through as many Members as possible.

Mick Antoniw AC: Point taken.

Thank you for listening, Minister. James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank the Minister for his statement from the commission, or as I like to call it the independent commission for independence sympathisers, judging by who the commissioners are. I've never read, I don't think, such a biased document against the UK Government and against the union of the United Kingdom. I think, Minister, that we all agree and recognise that there do need to be some constitutional changes across the United Kingdom. We've looked at that in the legislation committee, and it needs to be looked at. But as my colleague Darren Millar said, this needs to be done with a UK-wide approach, with every devolved Government and every devolved Parliament feeding into that process, because doing it in isolation will go nowhere. So, I want to know what conversations you've had with other Governments across the United Kingdom about having an actual commission that looks at everything in the round, to bring it together so that we can have meaningful change, and not a commission here that just keeps people in Plaid Cymru happy pushing an independence narrative, which, I'm afraid to burst their bubble, is going nowhere.

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank you for the comments and the spirit in which they were made. You say it's one of the most biased documents so far, but it is an interim report. I wasn't really too sure that there was that much in it that you could read as being that biased, but I suppose when you say that it's the most biased document against the UK Government, I suppose what you can say is that it's probably quite an accurate reflection of current popular opinion of the UK Government. But that's my hyperbolic comment out of the way. The commission is engaging, and I hope you will. I know that Darren Millar has engaged, and obviously senior UK Government Ministers have engaged. So, it is taken seriously. I think that is where the input is coming in from the UK Government. If senior UK Government Ministers are participating with it and giving their evidence and that's being properly considered as part of the evidence base and the engagement process, then I don't think it gives a sense that there is really much of a basis to the criticisms you're making.
More broadly, we have been arguing in this Chamber ever since I have been here, which is now 12 years or so, but I know it went on long before that, for a constitutional convention. I know, on a cross-party basis, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has been arguing and saying there should be a constitutional convention. The UK Government has consistently refused all along the way to go down that road to have a constitutional convention. I think, at some stage, it might be something that has to happen. And you are absolutely right, reform needs to take place with all the parties that are involved. But I don't think you can criticise this commission for the work it's doing and the mandate it has, because it is a mandate that we have set specifically for Wales but with the complete freedom for that commission to actually choose to engage with who it chooses. From what I can see, it has done that on a complete cross-party basis without bias.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I welcome the interim report and echo some, not all, of the comments that we've heard in this Chamber this afternoon. I'd like to concentrate my contribution on a small aspect of what you've said this afternoon, Minister.
Can we ban the use of the words 'progressive' and 'radical' when referring to the Gordon Brown proposals? They are anything but radical or progressive. Giving us control of youth justice and the probation service on their own is simply not good enough. It will not alter what Dr Rob Jones and Professor Richard Wyn Jones of the Wales Governance Centre have termed ‘the jagged edge’. Only full devolution of the criminal justice system will allow us to make the substantial changes that are desperately needed.
This retrograde position from Brown and Labour is a far cry from the stated ambition of the co-operation agreement for the full devolution of justice and policing in Wales. You may remember this not only follows the recommendations of the Welsh Government-established Thomas commission, but also featured in the Labour Party’s manifestos of 2017 and 2019 in the general elections. What has changed? Does Gordon Brown take Wales seriously, or are we just an afterthought?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your comments, Peredur. I actually think the Gordon Brown report is progressive. It's progressive because it talks about additional powers here; it talks about providing a constitutional framework to protect devolution and to protect the Sewel process; it talks about an unlimited subsidiarity as a fundamental principle—that power should be as close to the people as possible and it is only for the extent of what the interdependencies are that we have to have democratic governance; and the fact that there are no closed doors. This seems to me to be pretty progressive, and it seems to me pretty radical. If you adopt what I would sort of call the ‘shopping-list approach’ to devolution, where you have a whole list of things and you tick them and so on, well, maybe there are those who would not be happy with that approach. I suppose what I would say is, having been involved in the process of trying to organise and support decentralisation of power and devolution since the early 1970s, I see what is happening as something that is of significant change if it moves us forward. Maybe it doesn’t move us forward as quickly as some would like, maybe it doesn’t even move as quickly as I would like, but I think the proposals within it are pretty fundamental, and if they were implemented, I think it would result in significant change in terms of the devolution settlement, and greater devolution stability and coherence.

Mike Hedges AC: We have to move away from piecemeal devolution, with Plaid Cymru believing we can salami-slice to independence, the Conservatives that we can stop it going any further, and many looking to move devolution backwards. An example is policing: devolved to Scotland, Northern Ireland, Manchester and London, but not to Wales. We have directly elected mayors in England; in fact, Bristol has a directly elected mayor, and so does the West of England, including Bristol. Whilst where power and responsibility lie in the USA and Germany is clear—it being the same in each state or Länder—in Britain, it's complicated. I was going to use the word 'chaotic', and I think I probably prefer that word. Asymmetric devolution does not work; just look at what's happened in Spain, the only other country that's gone ahead with asymmetric devolution—it's got exactly the same problems as we have. Does the Minister agree there is a need to create a coherent model for the whole of the UK, as has been created in the USA and Germany, and that we need to do it urgently? We just cannot carry on like this.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Mike. I certainly agree with that last point that we can’t carry on like this. That’s precisely why I think we’ve been going down the road that we have, precisely why we have the commission. I think one of the most important things—whether you call it devolution, decentralisation of powers, subsidiarity or whatever—is the principles on which it’s based, what is the basis, what is the change you want to make and why do you want to make those changes. If it's about the empowerment of people and communities and better governance, then it’s a question of what changes will actually achieve that.
I don’t disagree with you in respect of justice and policing, but what I do know is that if there is not a labour Government in the next general election, we will not get the changes that we would want. We will not get any changes and we might even see a reversal of the current situation, which is why, I think, within the context, some of the proposals that are being put forward are really important constitutionally. They’re very important for the future of Wales, but they also are a framework within which a broader constitutional debate, which has to involve England and Scotland and Northern Ireland also, needs to take place. I think at some stage in the future, there will be a constitutional convention, because I think it’s the only way you can cohesively put all the different traits together. If that constitutional convention ever does take place, what we can say is that we’ve done our bit within Wales to ensure that we’ve engaged with the people of Wales, and that the input that we are making into that is a product of those conversations and discussions on behalf of the people of Wales.

Tom Giffard AS: Minister, I've heard a number of definitive statements from you today in terms of this interim report and the commission, in terms of what it means for the people of Wales. But, actually, I think this commission has been set up and the report has been based on, unfortunately, a skewed range of opinions. We know that 55 per cent of the people that responded to the survey supported independence, but from the last St David's Day poll, just 14 per cent of the people in Wales supported it. It's a very small number, but it's actually less than the number of people who vote for Plaid Cymru, so if Plaid can't even convince their own voters to support independence, how on earth they'll convince the rest of Wales, I'll never understand.
But, nevertheless, what this consultation exercise has shown is that it failed to properly engage with communities right across Wales. You called it a genuinely national conversation, but, in fact, it's actually a projection of Wales and the Wales that this commission wished existed, rather than the Wales that actually does exist today. It skews the entire consultation exercise. You said it set out the variety of opinions. Well, we know that the same number of people that want independence in Wales, according to polls, also want to abolish this place entirely, which is not something given consideration to at all by this commission. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that if this consultation cannot be done reliably, it should not be done at all?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I say, firstly, that I think your representation of the interim report and the work up to that stage is, indeed, a misrepresentation? Because what they have done is put forward a whole series of evidence sessions. Again, you're right in terms of the online consultation, and, to be honest, that's the same with just about every online consultation that takes place, that you have a large number of people with a predetermined position, and they've been absolutely honest about that. They said that straight upfront, but they've also said that that isn't the basis of the consultation, that the whole purpose of producing the interim report was to provide a framework on core options—and you've seen the three options that they've identified—on which they're now going through a much more detailed and grass-roots engagement process. So, I think it is unfair to criticise engagement when that engagement is actually taking place on the basis of the interim report.
I understand the position that you have, and I understand, within this Chamber, that when positions are put forward, sometimes they're positions that are overexaggerated for party political reasons and so on. What I do hope is that you do, deep down, recognise that there is now a very serious engagement process that is under way with the commission, that the Welsh Government is not directing or controlling that, that it is a genuine independent commission, and you are free to ensure that your views on all the specific points they are looking at are answered and you give evidence. I hope you will follow the exemplary example of Darren Millar, the former Secretary of State for Wales Simon Hart, and UK Government Ministers who have chosen to give that evidence, as, indeed, I understand, has Gordon Brown as well. I think your views are just as valid, and I now look forward to perhaps reading the evidence that you yourself submit in terms of your views in terms of the various points that are being made in the consultation that is under way.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Darren Millar and Tom Giffard make some important points about the level of engagement with the whole population. I think it's really important that we have that conversation, but that we ensure that all parts of the population are involved where possible.
There are three issues that the interim report highlights that are really not working at the moment: policing and justice, rail infrastructure, and welfare. I think the Tories need to pay caution to the fact that there are so many people in our country who are in full-time work and are struggling to eat and heat. That tells you there must be something wrong with our welfare system. We've already rehearsed the problems with the rail infrastructure in First Minister's questions, so I want to raise the issue of policing and justice.
There is an absolute crisis of confidence in the police force across the United Kingdom. Our ability to ensure that the culture within the police is appropriate and not a place where people who should never be policemen can hide is—. We don't have those powers, and that is really worrying. But what's more than that, the way in which we waste money within the criminal justice system, across the United Kingdom, is something that is extremely difficult for us to resolve unless we have the powers. We have an excellent relationship at the moment with people in the Ministry of Justice, who are all working together on this women's justice blueprint, but that can change without anything that the Welsh Government can do about it. If the UK Government suddenly decide that they want to go off on a different path, then all of the good work can just go down the can.
So, I want to understand what the relationship is between the Government and the remit of this commission, because these are serious issues and they need properly investigating. There's really almost nothing in the interim report on the important issue of policing and justice, indeed, nor on the welfare system and how we could run it better, if we had control over its administration, just like they have in the other countries—in Scotland and Northern Ireland. They're able to do it, so we should be able to show that we're able to spend money better and have a more just outcome from it. So, I wonder whether you can just highlight that for us.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. The terms of reference of the commission were well set out and we've been debating them on many occasions within this Chamber. I met recently with the commission, as the First Minister has, and I think they've explained, now, the process of engagement that they want to do and some of the directions of the issues they want to look at. They may want to look at these issues—financial issues, constitutional issues, governance issues and so on.
It really is for them to determine the areas that they think are, actually, important, where the evidence they conclude and the representations they get within the framework, where that leads them. I'd be very surprised if all of those issues are not ones that are being looked at, and looked at in some detail and being engaged with. With the sort of engagement process they're having, it's inevitable that that will be the case. I think it would be a big mistake to, actually, direct and say, 'This is what you've got to do, this is how you've got to do it', et cetera. I think you have to have confidence from the wide range of people from across political parties, the different persuasions and skills of the various commissioners and experts who are there that that is what they will do.
The points you raise in terms of welfare, policing, the cost-of-living crisis, justice and so on are absolutely right. I attended, with the Minister for Social Justice, Eastwood Park women's prison in Bristol. The governor there told us that every single woman there in that prison was a victim, one way or another, of abuse, of poverty, of exploitation. When we attended, just the other day, Berwyn prison up in north Wales, 10 per cent of the prisoners are former care leavers. We met with the care leavers, many of whom have themselves become mentors to care leavers who are coming into the prison system.In discussions that we've had with Cardiff University over the recent research and publications that they've had, the suggestion is that Wales has the highest level of imprisonment of its citizens in the whole of Europe, and something like two thirds or more of those who are on probation or in prison come from black or ethnic minority backgrounds. All of those things tell you that there are really serious issues in terms of our justice system. Looking at those, and how it can be delivered better, of course, is already part of our policy.
Now, our views on that have been fed into the commission in evidence sessions, as I'm sure have the views of every other individual who's interested in the commission. That's why I keep saying, whether you agree or don't agree with it—whether you think it should be going ahead or not—it is there and it is really important that you engage with it, and that we have the most constructive engagement and consideration of all of those issues that are so important to the future of Wales and the people of Wales. It's a way of actually exploring the thinking and the views of the people of Wales.
The point, Jenny, that you made and that you've made as well is absolutely right: the quality, to some extent, is the scale and the quality of the evidence, but also the quality of the engagement that takes place. That's why it is important, not whether we're going to agree with or disagree with the outcome, and not whether we think our predetermined views are always going to be the views we're going to have and we're not going to consider anything else so inflexibly, et cetera—I'm sure that that isn't the case. And that's why I think what is happening is timely, but I think it is also fundamentally important. Aneurin Bevan said that the problem, sometimes, is that people know the price of everything but the value of nothing,and I think our democracy has a very high value, and that's the direction we're taking. Thank you.

Rhys ab Owen AS: It's clear, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, from the interim report that the current devolution settlement is both dysfunctional and wholly inadequate for the needs of the people of Wales. What is also clear is that the commission will face an uphill struggle to persuade a Westminster Government of any colour that fundamental change is needed. I read last week your interview with theLaw Society Gazette and was shocked that only five of the 78 recommendations of the independent commission on justice in Wales report have been accepted by Westminster. How do you surmount the very real challenge that Wales is an afterthought at best at Whitehall at all times? How can those proud defenders of the status quo there on the Conservative benches and with you, with Labour, in Westminster—how can they defend the status quo, that this union is working for the people of Wales, when we are one of the poorest parts of the United Kingdom, as mentioned by Jenny Rathbone? Our poverty is not inevitable. We have the resources, we have the skills. What we need is thechwarae teg, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. The late Tom Nairn said that the British state,
'has entered into a historical cul-de-sac from which no exit is visible'.
Well, this commission has the opportunity to guide us toward an exit. However, I think it is very fitting that one of the co-chairs of this commission is the former Archbishop of Canterbury, because you will need all the support in the world and beyond to persuade any Westminster Government that change really is needed. Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for that last comment. If water can be turned into wine, then I'm pretty sure that commissions can be turned into constitutional reform. Listen, the point that you make is a valid one, isn't it? There is a recognition—and I hope there is common ground that there's a recognition that our constitutional structures, the status quo, are not acceptable, not workable, and there needs to be change. That's why everyone needs to make an input on what they think that change should be.
But, when has devolution been easy? When has constitutional reform, when has change, been easy? We only have to look through history to see the steps that have been taken and what has happened. In England, there had to be a civil war to get some fundamental constitutional reform; well, we don't need to go that far, but it's a recognition of the fact that there's a need, that things aren't working and we have to make them better. I very much value the comments and the input that you've made to this, but this is an important debate and it's an ongoing debate.

Two final questions. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you very much, and I also welcome the statement today. Earlier this month, I spoke to my Labour Party membership in Islwyn regarding the work of the commission and the interim report, and my sense from that meeting and wider discussions is that there's still much to be done in totality to communicate the work of the independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales. Because people are understandably trying to get by in the cost-of-living crisis and the pandemic, there is not much space for many in terms of understanding the ins and outs of a theoretical constitutional reform. However, this does affect all of us across Wales, and never a bigger impact on the citizens of Wales with its final conclusion—we cannot underestimate the importance of that.
I noted that there exists confusion between the work of the independent commission and the well-publicised Welsh Government discussion of Senedd reform, and now the Gordon Brown reportage. I note that there have been 2,000 responses, which is a healthy start, but Wales having a population of three million demands the question: how do we ensure that this is a meaningful local and national conversation? I know that the Llywydd is looking at me.
You stated that the commission has indicated that their intention is, in the next phase of their work, to extend that conversation to the people of Wales, and that's to be welcomed, but that has to be a real and important conversation that stretches across Wales and across our valleys. So, Counsel General, how will this actually manifest itself in reality, as there is a need for that greater dialogue, for the engagement that we all want and that Wales deserves?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Rhianon, for those comments. The commission has set out a programme of much deeper engagement, much deeper consultation, and the establishment of groups within communities with which it will engage, and I know that that was one of the points thatI raised and others raised when we met with them—'How are you going to go about it?' There was clearly a lot of work and a lot of thought about it. And we all know from our own engagement with our communities that it's not an easy process. People who are disengaged from civic society in that way are difficult to engage with—they have dropped out for a particular reason—but I'm confident that they are clearly addressing it, and that they will be doing some very, very different things and ways of doing it.
In terms of our discussions, this is a challenge for all of us, isn't it? How do we turn these debates, which are about how people can influence matters, influence the decisions that affect their lives, into more than technical discussions? Well, look this happened—we only have to look through history. It has happened before. The Chartists—what was that? That was about constitutional reform; it was about almost nothing else other than constitutional reform. The establishment of democracy is about constitutional reform. Keir Hardie, on theLabour Representation Committee before the establishment of the Labour Party, talked about home rule, constitutional things, because they recognised the importance in terms of identifying where power was and how you could exercise and democratise it.
So, that is the core, I think, of the debate that we're having and that we must have and I think will be underpinning many of the future discussions that we're going to have on this very, very important issue. I'm glad that we've been able to have this hour. I'm grateful for the generosity of the Llywydd for allowing this debate to take place in this way, but this is really only the start of that work, I think.

I'm generous enough even to call Alun Davies. [Laughter.]

Alun Davies AC: There we are. I'm very grateful to you, Presiding Officer, and so is the Chamber. [Laughter.] Home rule, of course, was one of the founding principles of the modern Labour Party, and those people who haven't read 'In Place of Fear' will chart Aneurin Bevan's search for democracy and search for power from the miners' lodge in Pochin colliery, through Tredegar town council and Monmouthshire County Council to the Palace of Westminster. And power is what socialism is about, and the use of power and the democratic control of power, which is what Waldorf and Statler don't actually like about this debate, because this is about the democratisation of political power. What I want to see from this commission, Counsel General, is the establishment of a recognition that parliamentary democracy is equal here as to that which exists in Westminster.
I've read through the statutes of Westminster in 1931, and that might well provide a building block for the shared sovereignty of parliamentary democracy throughout these islands, because until we lose the concept of parliamentary democracy residing in Westminster and Westminster alone, we will never be able to protect the powers that the people of Wales want to be held here. So, we need to be able to do that.
And the other point that I will just make, if the Presiding Officer will allow me, is that about the democratisation of money. All too often, decisions that are taken by the UK Treasury are taken to benefit London and the south-east of England, and one place where Liz Truss was absolutely right was that Treasury orthodoxy has failed the United Kingdom. Treasury orthodoxy has failed Wales. Treasury orthodoxy has impoverished the United Kingdom, and what I would like to see is a model based, perhaps, even on the Australian model, where you have the independent allocation of funds and redistribution of wealth across these islands to ensure that all parts of these islands benefit from the wealth created in these islands.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that, and again, I'm grateful to the Llywydd for her generosity, or shall I say extravagance? [Laughter.] The point you make on sovereignty is an important one, and I have been saying at every opportunity I get that the concept of Westminster sovereignty disappeared some time ago. It may not be completely recognised and maybe our constitutional structure may not have caught up with it, but where you have four Parliaments that elect and have primary legislative powers, with mandates from the people by whom they were elected, then there cannot be anything other than shared sovereignty. And it is the failure of our constitutional system to adjust to that that I think has resulted in the dysfunctions that we are continually facing every day, and one of the reasons why there has to be reform. The democratisation of finance, the accountability of the Treasury, I actually agree are absolutely fundamental. The HS2 debate is a classic example of that. It should not be capable of happening in an area where there is clear delineation of the conventions and the powers and the responsibilities. So, beyond that, I think I agreed with most of the other points you made as well.

I thank the Counsel General.

7. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: Welsh in Education Planning

The next item is the statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on Welsh in education planning, and I call on the Minister to make the statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and it's my pleasure to be here today to update Members on our progress regarding Welsh in education planning.
Since my last statement, I’m pleased to say that all 10-year Welsh in education strategic plans by local authorities have been approved and published and are operational. Not only that, I've received 22 action plans, setting out in detail how local authorities will deliver their WESPs during the first five years. I’d like to thank everyone at local authority and stakeholder level for their continued support and their involvement in this agenda. It demonstrates to me a real commitment and understanding of the need to keep moving forward, together, with a clear vision.
And delivering on their commitments is exactly what they intend to do. This is a clear message from council leaders and directors of education during our meetings to discuss their WESPs last term. We all know that education and language planning aren't easy, particularly as the starting point of each local authority is different. We need to continue, therefore, to work together to make sure that the decisions that we make and the actions that we take bring us closer to our 'Cymraeg 2050' ambition, namely a million Welsh speakers. For my part, I intend to make sure that the guidance issued to local authorities reflects our 'Cymraeg 2050' commitments. New guidance has already been issued around the capital grants for sustainable communities for learning and the WESPs, so that investment plans are assessed against the WESPs to ensure that they provide the capability to meet the targets. We also intend to review the school organisation code, with work already under way to identify which changes are needed. 
I was pleased to be able to allocate a further £7 million in capital funding during the autumn term to support our WESP commitments of local authorities. This is on top of the £105 million approved since 2018. The £6.6 million to expand late immersion provision across Wales over this Senedd term is gaining momentum, with all bids by local authorities operational since September. The funding will allow local authorities to employ more than 60 late immersion specialists over the coming years. For example, in the Vale of Glamorgan, they have been able to open their first late immersion unit in Ysgol Gwaun y Nant through the use of this grant. We’re also supporting the virtual immersion learning programme in Gwynedd, using VR technology, a resource that will benefit the whole of Wales.
We launched our network to support Welsh language immersion in December last year, bringing local authorities, schools and late immersion specialists together to ensure developments in late immersion practices are based on knowledge and research. I'm very proud of what we've achieved in this area. Our late immersion provision is unique to us in Wales, and the potential for us to go even further is clear to see.
We can't, however, ignore the census results on the Welsh language, published on 6 December. The figures relating to three to 15-year olds were disappointing, as we know that there are more learners in Welsh-medium education today than there were 10 years ago—over 11,000 more. As I said in my statement on the Welsh language census results on 24 January, the Welsh Government remains absolutely committed to our aim of a million Welsh speakers and doubling the number of us who use Welsh every day by 2050.
Maintaining a better understanding of the data is a key part of Welsh in education planning. A local Welsh language data profile was provided to local authorities during the preparation of their WESPs, which will be updated annually. I will also publish a national overview based on review reports on the WESPs.
Since publishing our 10-year education workforce plan in May 2022, we’ve also been working with some local authorities to develop a consistent method of analysing data collected by schools and local authorities. This will enable a more detailed understanding of how many additional teachers are required to deliver local authority plans to increase the number of learners in Welsh-medium education, and it will also enable stakeholders to better target our support for all practitioners to develop their own Welsh language skills.
We want to ensure that all learners in all schools have the best opportunity to become confident Welsh speakers. We've committed to establishing and implementing a continuum of Welsh language learning so that learners, teachers, parents and employers have a shared understanding of the journey to learn Welsh and the expected linguistic outcomes on each stage of that journey. A crucial aspect of this work will be to ensure that the continuum can be used both within the statutory education system in support of the Curriculum for Wales as well as in post-16 and adult learning. We have been exploring with stakeholders opportunities to use the common European framework of reference for languages, CEFR, as a basis for developing a Welsh language continuum. Embedding the continuum will take time, but I’m committed to ensuring that the opportunity to learn Welsh is available to all.
We’ll continue to work across all schools and settings to ensure that the way in which we teach Welsh is innovative and is supported by professional learning and resources. We must refocus our efforts in the English-medium sector. I applaud the hard work that's going on in schools, and I know that there is appetite and enthusiasm among Welsh teachers to take advantage of the opportunities afforded within the Curriculum for Wales. We've already published the framework for the Welsh language in English-medium education, and the free Welsh lessons delivered through the National Centre for Learning Welsh for learners aged 16 to 25 and also for the education workforce is a great example of the collaborative work going on with our partners.
Since September, we've funded the centre and Say Something in Welsh to develop an app to reinforce the Welsh language skills of learners and develop their confidence. Developments such as these have the potential to increase the use of Welsh in all of our schools. We intend to roll out this pilot to 10 other English-medium schools, and the planning for that starts immediately. We will also develop more resources to ensure that our Welsh language learners are well supported to become confident, proud speakers. Of course, one size will not fit all, and we must continue to find a suite of different interventions to support all learners, wherever they are on their language journey.
These are all small but significant steps, which we need to celebrate. Cymraeg, Welsh, belongs to us all, and I am confident that, in partnership, we can deliver.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to the Minister for giving me sight of the statement beforehand this afternoon.
I think we all acknowledge that we do need to develop an integrated strategy and policy for the delivery of 'Cymraeg 2050' that will see the Welsh Government collaborating with local authorities, and vice versa, rather than working in silos separately. Although I have no objection to what the WESPs hope to achieve, I do have some concerns as to how the Welsh Government and local authorities are working to provide their WESPs in education. The Minister will be aware that I raised some concerns about the current inability to scrutinise local authorities and the implementation of their WESPs.
As I've said in this Chamber previously, if 'Cymraeg 2050' is to be delivered,then every policy maker here or in county halls across Wales must be accountable on delivering for the Welsh language. Very importantly, there is a role that the Welsh Government must play in ensuring that every local authority delivers the WESP that they have pledged. Now, practically, this is not currently the case.

Samuel Kurtz MS: As has been established, Welsh in education strategic plans are a Welsh Government mechanism in place to ensure that all 22 local authorities are taking decisions in the interests of the Welsh Government's own objectives and targets, in this case, 'Cymraeg 2050'. Local authorities submit their WESPs to Welsh Government, who decide if they are satisfactory or not. Once deemed satisfactory, the local authority then implements that WESP. But should they fail to deliver the WESP, then Welsh Government posses no ability to intervene and direct that authority in the right direction. Because of this, what hopes do the Welsh Government have of achieving 'Cymraeg 2050' if WESPs are seen, sometimes, as a box-ticking exercise by local authorities, with no obligation to deliver upon them?
I appreciate, Minister, that you intend to bring forward a Welsh language Act and are having active discussions with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement, but the current relationship between Welsh Government, its policies and local authorities is not producing the results we all want to see. Whilst local authorities are coming up with WESPs, there's no way for Welsh Government to ensure that WESP journey is completed.
When we make targets such as 'Cymraeg 2050' and policies such as WESPs, we have to ensure that local authorities, further education colleges, early years learning and third sector organisations all fit within a whole pathway of support and consultation. In part, this is already somewhat being done. The coleg Cymraeg is already working on ensuring that further and higher education provision is being provided through the medium of Welsh within specific and targeted sectors. But this isn't captured within local authorities' Welsh in education strategic plans because the coleg Cymraeg only provide oversight for the whole post-16 provision. As a result of this, will the Minister reassess the WESP framework to ensure that it encapsulates all 22 local authorities' entire Welsh language provision, including all sectors of education?

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, it appears that I am rehearsing this point in all statements on the Welsh language. I share your ambition for our language. I want to see it prosper across Wales, be that in the classroom, on the high street, or at the office desk. But, to do this, we must bring everyone with us on this shared journey, and we can do that by developing policies that see that all levels of government, the third sector and education work together as one. We need to ensure that Welsh Government policies reflect this. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I agree that the Member does repeat this. It's a lazy narrative, and there's no evidence supporting what he said today about the performance of local authorities. We have new WESPs since September only, and there's not one sentence of evidence suggesting that local authorities are falling behind on their obligations. My experience of discussing this with leaders is very encouraging. I've said several times, in response to what the Member has said in the past, that I insist that councils are accountable for what they do in their WESPs, and we'll do everything we can to ensure that that happens. But I've also said, in the conversations that I've had with the councils, one-on-one with the leaders, that the commitment of leaders is clear to the WESPs, and so that's to be welcomed and it's very encouraging.
In terms of scrutiny, the Member is wrong about this. We have a scrutiny system for the WESPs. I said in my statement that five-year plans have already been published, which show the progress that they intend to make over the next five years. There will be annual monitoring. A monitoring framework has been developed, which builds on the assessment framework. We have regulations in 2019 that make it a requirement for authorities to report on their progress annually. Those documents will be public documents. I said in my statement that I intend to publish an overview of the progress against the WESPs. So, this narrative—there's no basis for it. We have a plan, we have a strategy, and we have action plans. We're working through them. There are requirements on local authorities. Our function as a Government is to ensure that they keep what they commit to do in sight and deliver on that. And if the Member wants to look with us at ways of strengthening the powers of the Welsh Government to do that through legislation, I'd welcome his support for the Bill.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for the update and for the opportunity to see the statement in advance. I particularly welcome the fact that the Minister has stated his commitment to ensuring that all learners in all schools have the best possible opportunity to be confident Welsh speakers. This is an important principle, and takes us further than the commitment in the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy, which states that the Government's aim is to ensure that at least 70 per cent of all learners develop Welsh language skills and are able to use the language confidently in all aspects of their lives by the time they leave school. I certainly welcome this change, and I'm of the view that if we are serious about ensuring that the Welsh language belongs to us all, then all learners must be supported to learn the language in every school in Wales.
This is a significant change, and what I would like to ask, Minister, is: how is this principle supported by the WESPs? After all, evidence from the Basque Country shows that immersion, and receiving education through the medium of the Basque language, is undoubtedly the most effective way of ensuring that learners become confident Basque speakers. If you don't support this principle, what methodology would you recommend for ensuring that all pupils in Wales develop confident bilingual skills?
You refer in your statement to the steps that have been taken to support immersion education, and without doubt, this is to be welcomed. We've all seen incredible things on the news of people becoming entirely fluent in no time at all. But in most cases, if not in all cases, the intention of immersion education is to support learners who want to attend Welsh-medium schools, and there are few opportunities for learners in other schools to take advantage of such schemes. We know that immersion works—we've seen that. You and I have met people who've been through that system. So, with the commitment to ensure that all learners will have the best possible opportunity to be confident Welsh speakers, what plans does the Government have to expand opportunities for immersion and increase the use of learning through the medium of Welsh in every school? Isn't this the only way to ensure that we reach our goal?
Clearly, one thing that is an obstacle to all of this is the workforce—you refer to that in your statement—and specifically that we don't have enough teachers who can work through the medium of Welsh to meet the requirements of the WESPs as they are currently. With a number of teachers on strike tomorrow, and many telling us that they are leaving the profession or considering doing so, how concerned are you that we don't have the workforce in place to reach the current goals, specifically in terms of learning Welsh, learning through the medium of Welsh, and also in terms of additional learning needs?
I'm pleased to see reference to the co-operation agreement in your statement, and specifically in terms of the free Welsh lessons for learners between the ages of 16 and 25, and also those in the education workforce. Can I ask how many people have taken advantage of these lessons since the schemes were launched? Are you seeing that people have the time to take up these opportunities?
Finally, as has been mentioned, one of the major challenge with the WESPs so far is the issue of accountability. I accept the point that you've been given a commitment by leaders in all local authorities, and that's to be warmly welcomed. Clearly, there was some discussion between you and the local authorities in terms of the WESPs, with many having to return to them. But in terms of that issue of accountability, in the the past we have seen some local authorities not delivering the objectives that they had set for themselves, and not always providing explanations for that. So, although I welcome that there is a commitment that they will do better, possibly, in those authorities, how can we ensure that accountability? And therefore how important will it be to ensure that the Welsh language education Bill will strengthen the Government's ability to ensure that education plans are implemented in a way that supports the ambition of seeing all children becoming confident Welsh speakers?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for welcoming the statement. I agree with several points that she made in her question. In terms of the investment in immersion, we do have ambitious plans in that regard. We have a budget of just under £7 million for the period between now and the end of this Senedd term to invest in late immersion. What's great—. I gave an example in my statement of a new school in the Vale of Glamorgan that has established a late immersion unit. All authorities are at different places in terms of immersion, of course, but all of them have shown an interest in expanding provision across Wales, so I think that that's very encouraging. And the budget is available over several years, so there is an opportunity to expand that even further. I think I mentioned last week that I was interviewed by a six-year-old pupil who had been in an immersion centre since September. She came from England, of Mexican heritage—her family was from Mexico—and she interviewed me in Welsh. And the whole thing was very striking. So, investing in immersion is very important. But, as you've said, the purpose of that, ultimately, is to secure access to Welsh-medium education, on the whole.
So, the other aim is to ensure that people leave education of any medium in Wales as confident speakers. That's very ambitious, but that concept is very important in terms of unifying the education system, I think, so that we don't have that difference in terms of Welsh speaking ability between the Welsh-medium sector and the English-medium sector. And the challenges are different in those two contexts. We have a lot more to do in that sense. We've published the framework already, but we need resources and training to accompany that to ensure the provision. And it is an ambitious and long-term plan. This is not something that can happen overnight, but I certainly think that this is one of the findings that emerged from the census results, that we need to focus on provision in the English-medium sector. We have a scheme for 23 new Welsh-medium schools and for moving 25 along the continuum towards category 3, but for decades we will still have very large numbers of English-medium schools, and we can't be in a situation where children leave English-medium schools not being confident in Welsh. So, we have to ensure an emphasis on that as well.
You're right to say that the workforce is a challenge. I've been clear about that. We do have a 10-year plan that correlates with the 10-year WESPs, but we do need progress every year, not just over the long term. So, I have said that we'll be very practical about that. There are lots of things, lots of actions in that plan. The things that work, we'll do more of them; the things that don't work, we'll stop doing them. So, this is an entirely practical exercise to increase those numbers.
And in terms of the final question, on accountability, there are weaknesses in terms of the ability to enforce these objectives, we know that, and that is one of the things that we're discussing with Plaid Cymru in terms of the new Welsh-medium education Bill.

Thank you, Minister.

8. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd: Controlling BVD in cattle and scab in sheep in Wales

The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, on controlling BVD in cattle and scab in sheep. The Minister to make the statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The negative impact of bovine viral diarrhoea and sheep scab on animal welfare and the sustainability of our cattle and sheep farms is of great concern. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of our livestock sector stepping up and working together to eradicate these two diseases from Wales. The control, local and, ultimately, national eradication of BVD and sheep scab are priorities of our animal health and welfare framework and are included in its 2022-24 implementation plan.
The Wales animal health and welfare framework, all of which are impacted upon by these two diseases: Wales has healthy productive animals; animals in Wales have a good quality of life; people trust and have confidence in the way food is produced; Wales has a thriving rural economy; Wales has a high-quality environment. Eradicating these two diseases moves us closer to achieving these goals and will hugely benefit the welfare of cattle and sheep in Wales.
Neither BVD nor sheep scab affect people, but we are taking a one-health approach to their control and eradication. This means addressing holistically animal, environmental and human health in all we do. So, our work will benefit the health and welfare of sheep and cattle, and it will also lead to improved environmental health and have a positive impact on the well-being of our sheep and cattle keepers. The one-health approach is more important now than ever as Wales moves closer to the launch of the sustainable farming scheme.
I will start with BVD.We must make every effort to eradicate BVD from our cattle. Many European countries are eradicating the disease, and I want Wales to maintain its status as a high-health producer and we cannot be left behind. This disease causes affected animals to suffer greatly because it is immunosuppressive, increasing susceptibility to diseases. When BVD is eradicated, all aspects of cattle health are improved, including their welfare and the need to use antibiotics.Features of the disease mean while it can and should be controlled at farm level, national co-ordination is required for widespread eradication. This emphasises the need for partnership working, and while responsibility lies with cattle keepers, the Welsh Government is supporting industry to achieve eradication.
I want to highlight the outstanding work of the Gwaredu BVD project. This industry-led voluntary scheme was launched at the 2017 Royal Welsh Show,with £9 million of funding secured from the Welsh Government rural development programme. By testing young stock, the programme has identified the herds infected with BVD and supported those farmers to find and remove infected animals. I'm delighted to say that the five-year programme successfully screened over 9,163 herds, representing over 83 per cent of the cattle herds in Wales. The programme has also identified over 1,000 permanently infected animals over its course.

Lesley Griffiths AC: One of the key principles of the Wales animal health and welfare framework is partnership working. The Gwaredu BVD programme is an excellent example of what can be achieved through such successful collaboration. I would like to recognise the importance of the veterinary delivery partners and surgeons who helped deliver this scheme on the ground.
Following the success of the industry-led Gwaredu BVD scheme, its stakeholder steering group recommended the introduction of a compulsory programme, underpinned by legislation. The main challenge of the voluntary scheme has been the removal of infected animals from cattle herds to prevent the spread of BVD. This is an essential step towards BVD eradication, and I've always been clear: legislation would be considered following a successful voluntary phase and subject to appropriate evidence being provided to both shape and justify legislative control.
We have gathered the industry’s views on the proposal of a compulsory eradication scheme in Wales. Working in partnership alongside Gwaredu BVD and the BVD steering group, we launched our consultation last June, seeking views from the cattle-keeping community and wider stakeholders. We received over 100 responses from various representatives of the Welsh cattle industry, including keepers, vets, farming unions and auctioneers. I am pleased to note the industry’s overwhelming support on this important issue, and the consultation confirmed a desire for more stringent measures, with the majority supporting the introduction of legislation and compulsory requirements to effectively eradicate BVD in Wales. We listened to feedback, and as we enter the transition phase and prepare for future legislation, it is vital that keepers continue testing their herds against BVD and remove persistently infected animals as soon as feasibly possible.
The intention for a future scheme remains to provide a set of requirements to allow keepers to remove BVD from their herds and to keep it out through good biosecurity. Compulsory requirements would ensure the principles of effective BVD eradication are observed and the national herd can benefit from the long-term results of achieving BVD freedom.We will continue to build on the progress and successes of the voluntary phase of the scheme, and as we progress into its next phase, I would like to thank the cattle industry, delivery partners and keepers across Wales for their vigilance and efforts to date towards eradicating BVD.
Turning to sheep scab: as one of the most contagious diseases of sheep, scab is a significant threat to our sheep industry. This is due to the large number and size of flocks, to patterns of sheep movements and to extensive use of common grazing in Wales. Every keeper of sheep must recognise their responsibility to ensure their animals are kept free of scab. I have committed £4.5 million of rural investment scheme funding to be used to help support the industry tackle the disease. Eradicating this serious disease will protect the welfare of sheep in Wales, safeguard the reputation of 'brand Wales' and deliver significant economic benefits for the sector, at a particularly challenging time as we transition from our departure from the European Union.
In 2021 and 2022, I commissioned two sheep scab proof-of-concept projects to identify knowledge gaps. They successfully trialled three things: firstly, a new and innovative ELISA blood diagnostic test to identify scab in neighbouring at-risk flocks; secondly, treating affected flocks by professional mobile dipping to eliminate disease whilst ensuring there was no risk of the environmental harm from dip pollution; and thirdly, the projects facilitated local disease control groups to take ownership of outbreaks when they occurred and empowered sheep keepers to work collectively to stamp out the disease in their area. Additionally, we are funding free year-round skin-scrape testing for sheep scab, through the Animal and Plant Health Agency's Carmarthen Veterinary Investigation Centre for Welsh flocks.
Following these pilots, in July 2022 a tender went to the industry to submit a bid to deliver the £4.5 million all-Wales sheep scab eradication programme. The project provides considerable support from the Welsh Government to the sheep industry and our sheep vets to tackle and eliminate the scourge of sheep scab. We hope and expect the sheep industry will use this opportunity to put in place the necessary measures to stop scab spreading between flocks.
The strategic objectives of the programme are based on the principles of infectious disease control: keep it out—by significantly improving biosecurity within the sheep sector; detect it early—by using the novel ELISA test, which detects sheep scab two weeks before clinical signs are showing; stop it spreading—by encouraging informed purchasing of sheep and by taking the necessary biosecurity precautions whenever sheep are moved; and stamp it out—by treating infested sheep effectively and in an environmentally sustainable way.
The programme is due to launch in spring 2023. The Welsh Government is doing its part, and now we must work in partnership with our sheep farmers, contractors, auctioneers, hauliers and all of our sheep sector to keep our 9.5 million ewes and lambs safe from the scourge of sheep scab. Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I certainly welcome the opportunity to speak on both BVD and sheep scab, two devastating diseases that rightfully require the attention of the Welsh Government. I'm pleased to hear the number of announcements you've made this afternoon, Minister, and welcome those that will help support the agricultural community in their own efforts to fight against these disorders, so thank you.
Your statement perfectly highlights why we must treat these issues with the utmost importance, and why a holistic and targeted biosecurity approach is necessary if we are to meet your ambitions and the industry's ambitions and have any chance of reducing and eliminating transmission of both BVD and sheep scab amongst Wales's cattle and sheep. These two diseases represent an escalating threat to our farmyards, from the economic burden sheep scab has upon our agricultural economy, to the individual per-cow cost that BVD has on our farms. These are two serious issues that have critical ramfications on the agricultural industry's ability to operate, trade and become a viable farm business model.
Focusing upon BVD, this is a virus of endemic proportion, and you're right to say that every effort must be made to eradicate BVD from our cattle. Cattle free of BVD are healthier, less susceptible to other illnesses and disease, and, as you rightly mentioned, Minister, reduce the need for antibiotics. Part of the recent success is due to the Gwaredu BVD project, a collaborative approach that has been adopted by the Government working with all partners—farming unions, individual cattle farmers, auctioneers and vets, as you mentioned—to develop a strategy that is both targeted and pre-emptive in its approach. And, Minister, I can tell you, I've been in the thick of it, tagging young stock with tissue tags to be sent away for analysis.
I think there are certainly lessons that can be learned from our successes in this strategy, especially the way that the whole industry has played a direct part in its development and the level of ownership the industry has in tackling BVD. That's shown by the high percentage of herds screened in the five-year project. I noted in your statement that you reference the preparation of future legislation, ensuring that livestock farmers continue to test their herds against BVD and to remove permanently infected animals as soon as feasibly possible. I'd like to ask the Minister: will farmers be compensated for the compulsory removal of their infected animals? With the move from voluntary to compulsory testing, and the failure of compulsory testing in relation to bovine tuberculosis, what assurances can the Minister give that the compulsory BVD testing too won't be a long-drawn-out extra burden for farmers and one that will deliver tangible results in the short term and near future?
Moving focus to sheep scab, I know the Minister recognises the scale of this parasitic disease. Two thousand farms across Wales are impacted, upwards of 3 million sheep, at a cost to the UK rural economy of £78 million, £208 million per year. But it's not the economic losses alone that should concern us. Sheep scab has a significant impact on sheep welfare and comfort and, as such, is a clear problem to Welsh agriculture as a whole.
I'm pleased to note your intention to launch an all-Wales sheep scab eradication programme later this year. The strategic objectives you alluded to in your statement ought to provide a clear basis to build a coherent and collaborative eradication strategy that seeks to provide considerable support to our sheep industry. However, I do take issue, slightly, with the notion that the livestock sector ought to step up and meet the challenges presented by sheep scab. Having met with representatives of Wales's sheep industry, I think it is clear that they're doing everything that they can to minimise its transmission amongst the flock, irrespective of the burdens in their way.
One burden the Minister will be sure that I was to raise in this statement is Natural Resources Wales's planned hike in fees and regulatory charges—a move that is set to substantially damage Wales's ability to combat sheep scab. Their proposed tenfold increase in the cost of new applications for land spreading of spent and unused sheep dip is a huge detriment, and will undoubtedly curb our ability to improve animal health. So, can I urge the Minister, once again, to work with her colleague the climate change Minister to ensure that the agricultural sector's animal health efforts are not hindered by these fees?
Minister, I share your recognition of the importance of dealing with these twin issues. It is vital that we keep a close eye on the success of these interventions, so we can tweak and change them if we fail to deliver at any one point along the journey. To that end, can I ask you how you will be feeding back to us as a Senedd, the industry as well—most importantly—and what opportunities will there be to review the successes, or potentially failures—whichever they may be—as we move forward? I really look forward to your response. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much for welcoming the statement this afternoon and the announcements around the eradication of both BVD and sheep scab.
I think, in relation to BVD, it was good to give the voluntary scheme some significant time. I think there's been a real push to go for legislation, and I absolutely understand that, because I think what the sector didn't want was to lose the gains that had been made. Clearly, there was a significant issue with just a few farms—a small percentage of farms—not taking up the voluntary part of the scheme. Sometimes, you don't want to use legislation to crack a nut—it's too heavy handed. We wanted the scheme to have the five years to look at the data, and I was absolutely clear that we would only bring forward legislation if the evidence was there to show that legislation was needed. I do think we've made such gains in relation to BVD eradication, and it would indeed be a shame to lose that, particularly, as I mentioned in the statement, because of the challenging times we are facing, particularly coming out of the European Union. You don't want other countries to go ahead of us in relation to eradication.
In relation to sheep scab, I suppose what I mean by 'step up' is I think it's really important that the industry itself takes a grip of it, the ownership of it. I'm very happy to work in partnership. I had hoped to bring forward this scheme a while ago. I think it was back in 2019 I announced the funding, and that funding had to be repurposed then during the COVID pandemic for a couple of years. But I'd promised to bring the funding forward to have that all-Wales sheep scab eradication programme, although it's been a little longer than I'd hoped. We haven't really seen a lot of progress. So that, I suppose, is what I mean about it. I'm very happy to work in partnership. I think, if we're going to do anything, we need to work in partnership.
I hear what you're saying about the ongoing Natural Resources Wales consultation regarding their regulatory fees and charges. You will have heard me say before that what that review is intended to ensure is that NRW does achieve full cost recovery, because those fees haven't been reviewed for a number of years. But NRW do expect the increased costs of licences to impact on a very small number of farms. At the moment, they issue, on average, about 37 permits a year, so you can see it's not a substantial issue for a lot of people.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for her statement. It's a long-awaited statement, and whilst there is much to be welcomed, I'm sorry to say that I'm also disappointed.
If I could start with BVD. BVD, as we've heard, is one of the greatest challenges facing the cattle sector in Wales, and indeed, across the UK. There are far too many of our cattle suffering this terrible disease, and it leads to concern about animal welfare, the welfare of rural businesses, and the well-being of our farmers and their families. But the truth is that the veterinary sector tell me that it's also something relatively easy to tackle.
Ten million pounds has already been spent to tackle this disease. As the Minister mentioned, a large percentage—over 80 per cent—of herds have been treated. But I think it was Professor George Gunn, who is an expert in veterinary epidemiology, who said that the key to the success of any policy in tackling BVD is momentum. Unfortunately, from what I can see today, that momentum, which had been generated here in Wales, will come to an end. The £10 million of European funding will go to waste unless there is continuity here. The only real way of ensuring the continued success of this programme is through legislating, as we've heard. We need legislation in order to ensure that farmers continue to test. That's what I, vets and farmers were hoping to hear today. And although I welcome the ambition here, there is a very real risk that we will lose momentum unless we see a Bill introduced to this place.
You mentioned building on the successes of the voluntary phase of the BVD project and moving on to the next phase. But the statement comes to an end abruptly there. I know that vets and farmers listening will be very frustrated indeed today, because where is the detail about the next phase? We don't know. I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the details of the next phase are, and how we're going to build on this work. How does the Minister expect farmers to continue to test on a voluntary basis? Testing costs money, of course. Where will that money come from for these tests? For how long will the next phase be in place? But more importantly, when can we expect a Bill in order to require this? Can we at least have a clear timetable for such legislation, please?
Finally, in turning to sheep scab, this is a positive development and I welcome it. But again, there is a fundamental weakness, which is the lack of statutory support for plans to tackle sheep scab. In response to a question from me some months ago on the pledge to give £5 million to a scheme to tackle sheep scab, the Minister said in her response that she had given a substantial amount of money, but that COVID had interrupted the programme. I understand that that wasn't entirely right at the time, and perhaps the Minister misspoke. So, could the Minister today confirm if the £4.5 million announced today is the same money as was previously announced, and, therefore, that it's not new funding, it's a restatement of something that's previously been stated, or is this entirely new funding?
Finally, the recent announcement by NRW that they are to increase the fees to get rid of sheep dip to 10 times the current fee has horrified farmers, and indeed, is likely to lead to reduced dipping, which will harm farms, rural businesses and animal welfare. This would be contrary to any ambition by the Government to tackle sheep scab. In the consultation, there was talk that NRW was willing to allow some of the fees to be reduced to control disease. So, will the Minister persuade NRW to ensure that this is done across the board for all farms dealing with sheep, in order to enable farmers to continue to dip safely, and to secure the welfare of their herds?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm disappointed to hear your disappointment, Mabon, because, as I said, we've made some significant progress—over 80 per cent of herds have been tested while we've had the voluntary scheme. And while there has been a call for legislation, you heard me say in my earlier answer to Sam Kurtz that it was really important that we had that evidence that was needed to go ahead with the legislation, and we are indeed having that legislation. You ask about a timescale, and it will be within the next financial year that we will bring the legislation forward. So, I do hope you will welcome that.
I would urge all cattle keepers to keep testing a small sample of their cattle. The cost is estimated between £50 and £150 per year, so it's not a significant amount of funding that's required. Obviously, the cost-benefit ratio of eliminating BVD is hugely positive, and, I think, a very worthwhile investment in any farming business.
In relation to the sheep scab eradication programme funding, it is the same funding, as I said in my earlier answer to Sam Kurtz. I did make the announcement back in 2019 and I had hoped to bring the scheme forward much quicker than we have, but we did repurpose the funding during COVID, so that money was used then. So, it's the same money, if you know what I mean, within that announcement back in 2019.
Again, you will have heard me answer the concerns around Natural Resources Wales. They do expect that increase to only affect a small number of farms. I wouldn't want that to be used as an excuse not to treat sheep scab, and make sure that everyone does take part in this all-Wales sheep scab eradication programme. The Government can't do on its own, and I can see that the industry can't do on its own, but it's really important we work in partnership.

Thank you, Minister.

9. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Cancer Services Improvement Plan

Item 9 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the cancer services improvement plan. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today I would like to announce the publication of the cancer services improvement plan by NHS Wales. The plan sets out how the NHS, collectively, will respond to the quality statement for cancer and our wider commitments to improving diagnostic and end-of-life care for people affected by cancer. It follows on from several important debates we have held over the past year on the matter of improving cancer outcomes and my commitment to bring forward such a plan.
We set out in the national clinical framework that we would describe what good clinical services should look like in quality statements, and that we would expect the NHS to plan against those expectations. Health boards and trusts are doing this through the NHS planning framework, which focuses on cancer services, amongst other ministerial priorities, and they are currently developing these in their integrated medium-term plans, setting out their response. So, I've set out six priority areas—cancer is one of those priority areas. The cancer services improvement plan published today supports that process. It describes how the NHS intends to deliver our policy intentions.
One of the key areas in the quality statement is delivering care in line with the cancer waiting time. This means that 75 per cent of patients requiring cancer treatment should start definitive treatment within 62 days of the point at which cancer is first suspected. This expectation has been really challenging to deliver and there are three main reasons for this. The first is the introduction of the new suspected cancer pathway, which overhauled how we counted people on the cancer pathway—unique in the UK—capturing more people earlier on in their pathway without pausing the waiting time clock. The second is the historic growth in demand for cancer investigation and treatment, caused by our population factors and lowering of the risk threshold for referral, to ensure that we don't miss any potential cancers. And, thirdly, delivery has been restricted by our service capacity to refer, investigate, treat and care for people affected by cancer. In short, demand is growing, our capacity struggles to keep pace, and we’re now much better at accurately counting everybody on a cancer pathway. That translates into the cancer performance we see reported, which has been far below all our expectations since the new suspected cancer pathway was introduced. And it is fair to say that the pandemic has had its impact too. COVID has distorted access and created huge pressures in the wider system that have had implications for cancer investigations and access to theatres and critical care.
I held a summit of cancer service leaders in October to reinforce our planning expectations that we recover the volume on the cancer waiting list, we reduce the number of people waiting over 62 days, and build towards that 62-day target. Things are very, very difficult, with services working flat out to meet the needs of patients. But, I am pleased to report NHS management data shows a fall in the number of people waiting more than 62 days for their treatment to start between October and early December, and shows a fall in the overall number of people waiting on the cancer pathway and a slight improvement in cancer performance in the latest figures published for November. This shows the NHS is giving cancer pathways the focus they deserve, although the disruption of Christmas, industrial action and respiratory illnesses have caused us further challenges in recent weeks.

Eluned Morgan AC: We also asked for a focus on implementing the 21 nationally agreed pathways for Wales. This is at the heart of how we will ensure that patients get the right care wherever they are in Wales. These standardised pathways help us to focus on improving consistency and quality of care, and they include the new non-specific symptom pathway for Wales, which plugs into our rapid diagnostic centres. We will have the whole of the population of Wales covered by these centres in the next few months, which is a wonderful achievement. Many of them already exist, and they will be in place a whole year before England.
The quality statement places a focus on person-centred care, and, earlier this month, I spoke about the findings of the cancer patient experience survey, which showed, even during the pandemic, that 92 per cent of patients rated their care 'good' or 'very good'. The survey also provided important information about access to key workers and benefits advice, and that will now form part of local work on improving patient experience.
I’ve also recently issued a written statement on the cancer information solution. This is our £11 million investment in replacing the digital cancer patient record. We achieved the first major milestone of the overall programme in November, when Velindre Cancer Centre moved onto the Welsh patient administration system to manage its clinics, and started using the new digital patient record for cancer care. This has resolved a major service continuity risk that the public accounts committee has previously highlighted.
We all know how critical the development of the workforce is, and that's why we have committed to planning the workforce to meet future need for cancer care. So, I was very pleased to announce, on 18 January, theeducation and training plan of Health Education and Improvement Wales. That included uplifts, for the the third successive year, in the number of higher training posts for clinical and medical oncology, as well as further uplifts in training for clinical radiology and palliative care, which are vital roles in cancer pathways.
There are numerous other areas to mark or celebrate, including the all-Wales robotic surgery programme, the new breast cancer centres of excellence coming into place, the reduction in the bowel screening age range, and improvements in participation. But, I would like to end by focusing on our announcement last week of more than £86 million for new radiotherapy treatment equipment and facilities, including a new radiotherapy satellite centre in Abergavenny. Collectively, these developments, described in the cancer services improvement plan, speak to our commitment to support improved cancer services and outcomes. I hope that they will make a significant difference to the people delivering and, of course, those receiving cancer care in Wales.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for the statement today. It's very much welcome, and the cancer plan is very much welcome indeed also. It was, until this morning, that Wales was the only area of Britain that didn't have a cancer plan, and the cancer plan is well overdue. But, on a positive note, we've got the cancer plan today, and it's very much welcome.
What I did particularly like, as I looked through the cancer action plan, was that there are a whole lot of timescales and goals, with dates attached to the goals and targets as well. That's very much appreciated. I suppose the obvious question there is: do you think that the timelines in there, and the dates that are published alongside the goals, Minister, are reasonable? And do you think that they're reasonable to be achieved, I suppose, is the obvious question to ask?
Funnily enough, I was just looking back, Minister, and it was a year ago next Wednesday that I led a Senedd debate on cancer services in Wales. At the time, we talked about—I certainly talked about—the negative side effects for many patients and the focus that was needed on recovery, and many people worrying about additional costs as well. And, at the time, I asked for some measures, such as free dental care for cancer patients, and suggested that that could be offered as part of their recovery, especially now in terms of the cost-of-living pressures that we're all aware of. I couldn't see anything in the plan in regard to that, and I wonder if that's something that could be examined, Minister.
At the time, I also mentioned the number of people entering hospital in Wales for cancer treatment had fallen by over 40,000 in the first year of the pandemic. So, I would be interested if you could speak to that point, really, about how the plan specifically helps those who have missed out, potentially, on diagnosis as well.
Prior to the pandemic, the Welsh cancer intelligence unit showed that Wales had the lowest survival rates for six cancers, and the second lowest for three in the UK. We were already behind England, Scotland and Northern Ireland when it came to female, breast, lung, colon, rectal and stomach cancers. So, I would ask you, Minister, in that regard, if you are confident that Wales is going to be in a much better position when this plan expires. I suppose I should just ask you about the time frame of the plan. The plan is for three years. I would ask why three years. I'm not suggesting it's wrong; I'm just asking why, particularly, a three-year timeline, I suppose. But, also, I can see some stakeholders, whilst they welcomed the plan, and they welcomed the three-year plan, are also suggesting that there should be a longer term plan. So, I can see you looking at that, Minister, and thinking 'Oh, no he's asking for another plan now', but, no, just to get an understanding on what your response would be to stakeholders who say that something more longer term is needed also.
Also, I'd like to ask about the involvement of health boards in the development of the plan. Are you satisfied that local health boards will be able to deliver the goals set out in the plan, and particularly, I suppose, I'm asking that question in the context of the workforce issues that we're all aware of as well.
I also wanted to just touch upon the experience of cancer patients in Wales. In your statement, you maintain that 92 per cent of patients rated their care 'good' or 'very good'. Yet, results published from a charity survey highlight that cancer services are still massively failing patients. Getting information out to patients was an area that was shown to be largely inadequate, with 30 per cent of respondents stating they did not have possible side effects fully explained to them, or they weren't fully explained to them. And 52 per cent stated that they did not receive all the necessary information about how to manage their health and well-being following their treatment. So, Minister, I want to understand from you how confident you are that everyone will receive their personalised needs assessment promised in the cancer improvement care plan, when 70 per cent of respondents said they did not even receive a written care plan after their diagnosis in 2021-22? Thanks.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Russell. I'm pleased that you agree it's a good thing that we've got dates and goals and targets, and I think it is important to hold people to account; you hold me to account, I hold the health boards to account. So, it is important to have those in, and I am sure you will note the workforce implementation plan that's been published today also has very clear targets against the time frame.
This is a plan that has been developed and is owned by the NHS. It's not a Welsh Government plan; it is owned by the NHS. And, so, if they have developed this plan, I fully expect them to be able to deliver the plan. So, they think it's achievable. I think a huge amount of work has gone into this, and I would like to pay tribute to all of the people who have worked over a long period of time to get this into the right place, because it's not just about writing a plan; you've got to get buy-in from across the whole of Wales when you're talking about needing consistent quality standards. You can't just make a statement about that; you've got to get buy-in to make sure that everybody is signed up to that.
On the free dental care, look, at the moment, you know how pressurised our budgets are, so anything that involves any additional money is really, really difficult. Much as we'd love to go down that route, that would be very challenging at the moment. But, obviously, we can point, as I said in my statement, to the kind of support networks and funding streams that are available, particularly to people who are struggling.
COVID of course did throw things out for a while. We're getting back on track now in terms of screening. It has taken a while,particularly in relation to breast cancer, because we needed to get areas where people wouldn't come into contact with each other. So, we've had to adapt quite a lot, and we're still only just getting back on track with some of those.But, it is a concern, of course, that we do have low survival rates in Wales, but, I think, it's really important for us to understand that, actually, things have improved over the past few years. We are in a situation where the outcomes for people are much better than they have been in the past. So, the one-year survival rate has gone from 66 per cent to 73 per cent in the past two decades, so, I think, we're going in the right direction. We've almost doubled the amount of money that's gone into cancer support, so I think it's important that we recognise that.
We have lower survival rates. Some of this is about making sure that we understand the preventative agenda. We've got to get in the right place. We keep on talking about the importance of the preventative agenda, Apparently, between 30 and 50 per cent of cancers are preventable, so we all have a responsibility to play our part if we want to try—. Now, that's not true for everybody; it's really important to state that, but, actually, there are things that we can do to help ourselves. I am confident that we will be in a better position at the end of this programme.
Just in terms of the longer term, well, our cancer quality statement is our plan for the longer term. That's the statement that, again, has been developed by and with the NHS. And the health boards, as I say, were key in developing these plans, in particular, the Velindre cancer trust. I think that's really important to note there—the massive, massive amount of investment and work that's gone into this.
And, of course, when it comes to the workforce, it is the health boards and the trusts that indicate to HEIW where the gaps are, and, then, they commission that work. And, just in terms of your personalised needs assessment, by 2024, every cancer patient will have a caseworker, so I hope that will give some comfort to people.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I suppose the first thing I should say is that I'm pleased that we do have a cancer plan, and I look forward to seeing it hopefully make a difference. We know that our survival rates aren't good enough. We know that there are people—I was speaking to one person who found out too late over this weekend that he had cancer—there are too many people not being able to access the treatment that they could have had. There are too many members of staff who want to do more who can't do more, and that's heartbreaking for them.
And we do now have a plan, and looking forward is important. But it is important to bear in mind the delays that there have been before getting to this point today. The last two cancer plans—2012 to 2016, then 2016 to 2020—and we're almost three years on from there getting this plan. It is not good enough, and before the Minister says 'Well, COVID was the great problem from 2020 onwards' the plan for 2020 onwards should have been ready before COVID struck. What we had, of course, was the quality statement for cancer, but it was quite clear that that wasn't considered to be adequate by all bodies involved with the fight against cancer in Wales. Yes, it's taken three years to bring us to this point.
Many of the questions that I have now reflect some of those questions raised by organisations that have been involved in drawing this up but still see some gaps in the key information. Tenovus, for example, asked for more information around performance and accountability monitoring. How will we be able to identify as to whether we are on the right track? Does the plan deliver what it's supposed to deliver? I wonder if the Minister could tell us more about that issue.
Then, the workforce. The nature of the questions has changed slightly during the day, because, in less than the last two hours, we've had the workforce plan that we were promised by the end of January. Some five hours and 40 minutes of January remain. This isn’t the way we should be working. We should be in a position where we would have a statement to the Senedd on the workforce plan. I will take this opportunity to ask questions on the workforce because this statement’s been given, but I am not, and I’m sure those involved in the fight against cancer aren’t happy that things have been done in this way.
I’ve had a brief opportunity to take a look at the new workforce plan. I was concerned this morning with the BBC reporting comments from the Minister in the context of the fact that the cancer workforce was tired, and there are too many vacancies, and what the BBC said was that the Minister was saying that the health boards had the money and it was up to them to prioritise. Well, that doesn’t represent a workforce plan, I’m afraid. But we now do have a workforce plan, and it does state that responding to challenges set out in the cancer plan is one of the priorities for the new workforce plan—but I can’t see what the plan is for strengthening the cancer workforce. There is mention of timetables for different elements of strengthening the workforce. I can’t see a specific reference to the cancer workforce in that timetable. Perhaps the Minister could elucidate how exactly the plan published today will help in implementing the cancer plan, because without the workforce we have no means of improving survival rates, we have no means of taking pressure off our existing workforce. So I will look forward to a response on that.
And I’ll ask, if I may, one question on a major part of our cancer landscape, namely Velindre. I’ve been aware over recent weeks that more and more people, as I have done in the past, have suggested strongly that the co-location of cancer services with other emergency services is what makes sense, rather than developing them as discrete cancer centres. Has the Minister had an opportunity to consider the most recent comments by those who are very prominent in the cancer field and who are still suggesting that the wrong decision has been made? We want the best possible cancer services, but we don’t want decisions being made that we may regret in years to come.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I think a lot of people, unfortunately, find out that they have cancer as they go to emergency departments—the symptoms don’t show up until the last minute, and obviously that’s very difficult for them, and part of what we’re talking about in this plan is ensuring that there are acute oncology services available in our emergency departments.
This is an NHS plan, as I said, and it responds to the quality system that we have. In terms of accountability, the health boards are accountable to me, of course, through the chairs, but the NHS executive will have a specific role in ensuring that this is delivered, so I do hope—. And of course, through the integrated medium-term plans process, as you know, cancer is one of the six priorities that I have. So, monitoring those and making sure that they get the attention that they need will mean that it is one of the priorities.
In terms of the workforce, it is difficult, isn’t it? Because there’s so much going on, so much on our plate at the moment. If I hadn’t published the HEIW report, you would have complained about that, so I preferred to do what I said I was going to do. I can’t fit more things into the agenda—we only have one day this week. I’ve been on my feet already twice today, so it’s just a lack of space on the agenda—that’s the problem. We have done it. I did promise that we’d have it by the end of the month, and we’ve delivered. 
In terms of co-location, the decision on Velindre has been made. We've heard all sides of that debate, and there are questions in terms of timing and the best location, and so forth. The decision has been made, we won't be changing that decision, and the work will start before long. But I was very pleased to see the £86 million that we announced on Friday for new radiotherapy equipment. That's 10 new machines, and two of them are going to go to Abergavenny, which will mean that people won't have to travel quite so far on that side of Wales. So, I'm very pleased that we are going to push forward and that we do have the right equipment in place.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Minister, for your honest statement and also for your achievements, despite everything that you're having to do in the health field.
I just wanted to share with Members the discussion that took place in the women's health cross-party group in December, where we discussed the five gynae cancers. One of the speakers was a completely excellent patient campaigner who you may have heard of called Jim Sweet, whose wife died of ovarian cancer, and he's since made himself into a real expert in ovarian cancer, because she died two weeks after correct diagnosis, having been misdiagnosed as having irritable bowel syndrome and being sent to the gastroenterology clinic. I believe that this is not unusual.
He also was a great expert in comparing the way in which the healthcare system treats men versus women, and I know that this is something that you are very worried about. He compared the Rolls-Royce service that he got for prostate cancer versus the really fragmented service that his wife got. How do we improve that, because there clearly is a bias against women who complain about particular symptoms, who are not heard clearly enough? And how do we improve awareness of symptoms across all clinical specialisms so that, for example, gastroenterology is working really closely with cancer services, because this is not infrequently the case that these sorts of concerns are misdiagnosed by people who probably ought to know a lot more about ovarian cancer, and also some of the preventative measures around breastfeeding, multiple pregnancies, contraceptive pill, which, obviously, can massively decrease your likelihood of getting cancer, as well as the fact that eight out of 10 cases occur in women over 50?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I think we've got to be aware that one in two people are likely to get cancer, and so we're all touched by cancer in some way or another. And so, it is important that we do our very best to get a better understanding. Every day, we're getting new developments, new technologies and new genetic improvements. So, all of these things I hope will make sure that we just keep on improving the performance in this area.
Early diagnosis is absolutely key. That is true, of course, for gynae cancers, and I'm particularly concerned about the rates in relation to gynae cancers. I know that this will be something that the team across Wales will be looking at and be focusing on. Screening, of course, is absolutely key when it comes to making sure that people take up that opportunity of screening, and that we chase down—in the same way that we've chased down people who haven't had their vaccinations, we need to think about doing that in relation to screening as well.
You're absolutely right—I am very concerned that the healthcare system needs to make sure that they treat women, fairly, correctly, and in a way that is respectful to women as well as men. That's why we've already produced the women's health quality statement, and you're quite right, I think there's a lot more that we could all do in terms of learning what to look out for when it comes to symptom awareness. Some of the charities that have certainly been talking to meas we've been developing this plan, they are really good at raising awareness, but I think all of us have a responsibility to try and learn a bit more about what we should be looking out for. But the point is that, actually, we know our own bodies; if there is a change, we just need to be sensitive to that change and make sure that we go and get some support.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I'm pleased to finally see a statement and a plan today, as my constituents have been waiting an awfully long time for this to come to fruition. The Welsh Conservatives, and my colleague here, Russell George, have been calling for a cancer plan for a long time now, and Wales was the only country in the UK not to have a Government publish a cancer plan for far too long. So, I welcome that today.
But, Minister, I wanted to touch on less survivable cancers. It's mentioned in the plan, which is welcome, but I'm conscious that, in the past, Welsh Government communication campaigns have been poor. So, in terms of symptom awareness, will you be embarking on a cancer symptom awareness campaign to help members of the public and GPs? And regarding one of the most life-threatening cancers, lung cancer, will you be ramping up and implementing targeted lung health checks, which could save over 100 lives a year once it's rolled out in Wales? And will the Welsh Government be implementing the recommendations of the UK National Screening Committee? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, there are of course lots of campaigns that are already under way in relation to less survivable cancers by some of those organisations. What I'm not going to do is—. I've just published a plan; we're not going to start bolting new things onto the plan. This has been developed by people, it's been worked on by organisations across Wales, by the NHS. So, what's there is what we're going to deliver on, and we're not going to bolt anything new onto it, because actually it's been very carefully worked out. But there are things in relation, for example, to lung screening, and there is a pilot that we're undertaking there, and obviously we'll just see how that pilot goes. And that's about targeting people who've been smokers and whatever, in a particular area. So, we're going to see how that goes, and, obviously, we'll build on that if that works.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I've got a real interest in NHS informatics and how they can be used to drive service improvements. So, I note your comments around digital systems and Velindre Cancer Centre moving on to the Welsh patient administration system, and I was interested to read your written statement yesterday on the cancer informatics programme. So, I've got a few questions on that, and, in particular, on the next phase of the roll-out. Would you be able to update Members on the next significant milestone that's being aimed for on this journey of improvement, and when do you estimate that we might reach that next milestone? I was also interested to see your comments about capturing additional data through this system. So, what particular information would Welsh Government be looking to collect during these next phases of the roll-out?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I'm really keen on making sure that we use the most up-to-date technology to try and improve our systems. That is why, already, we've spent £86 million on these new radiotherapy machines; that's why we've spent £3 million on an electronic records system; and we've also got new robotic surgery technology that is already in place and working and getting lots of surgeons very excited across Wales. So, making sure that we use the most up-to-date machines and therapies is absolutely critical. We've also spent £4 million on the Wales cancer network, and I was being asked earlier about how we monitor this. Well, actually, the cancer network is going to be key to making sure that, actually, this plan is delivered. When it comes to informatics and collecting data, well, the detail and the timetables are set out in the plan of what is expected when. But, in terms of collecting information, the key thing for me is that we just keep on learning from people and their experiences, and that we feed back in a loop that will improve our services constantly, when it comes to cancer care.

And finally, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Great achievement, Minister. Now, people from deprived areas of Wales face worse outcomes when it comes to lung cancer, ovarian cancer or other cancers, and my concern is, which was raised by Laura as well, about the screening—targeted screening—between the age of 55 to 74, as we do with bowel cancer. And it is vital to understand and address the cause of health inequalities, and how are you going to tackle that?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, you're right, and I think we just have to constantly be trying to learn from what works. So, for example, we are now targeting screening when it comes to bowel cancer, and people are sent a faecal immunochemical test, and it's been really interesting to see that people seem to be more willing to use the FIT test that they can do at home, rather than coming into a surgery and whatever. So, we've got to use more of what works and make sure we target, as you say, some of those deprived areas. And there's some great work being done, for example, I think, in Dawn Bowden's constituency in relation to trying to encourage men in particular to take up the opportunity of bowel cancer screening, and the Moondance Foundation have been pushing this and just trying to make sure that, actually, we engage people, get people to take up the opportunities when they're given them. And so I think we've learnt quite a lot through the vaccination programme of leaving nobody behind, and we've just got to keep on using those techniques now when it comes to chasing down people who are not taking up those opportunities when it comes to screening.

Thank you, Minister.

10. Legislative Consent Motion on the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Item 10 this afternoon is the legislative consent motion on the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill. I call on on the Minister for Economy to move the motion. Vaughan Gething.

Motion NDM8190 Vaughan Gething
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion before us. I find it difficult in addressing, or disappointing in addressing, this motion, which relates to a Bill implementing the free trade agreements with Australia and New Zealand, that we are yet again having to discuss another case in which the UK Government is seeking consent from the Senedd to a Bill that contains concurrent powers for which the UK Government will not include equivalent powers for Welsh Ministers. We've tabled the motion to ensure the Senedd can explore the issues around the Bill and reach its decision on consent. Members will see, in the memorandum, that we recommend withholding consent. There are good legal and constitutional reasons for this.
Members will note the Welsh Government considers that clause 1 is central to the Bill and gives powers to all four Governments in the UK. To the extent that the power is given to Welsh Ministers, this Bill is within the Senedd's competence and comprises a devolved matter within the meaning of section 107(6) of the Government of Wales Act 2006. All other provisions within the Bill follow from the powers set out in clause 1, and, as such, almost all provisions of the Bill require consent.
The function of the Bill itself is fairly narrow and technical in nature in that it would allow the UK Government, as well as Welsh Ministers, the power to make changes to domestic legislation stemming from the UK Government's procurement obligations under the agreements with Australia and New Zealand. This Bill must be passed and receive Royal Assent before the agreements enter into force to ensure that the UK is not in breach of its obligations detailed in those agreements. However, this Bill will then be repealed by another Bill that is currently progressing through the UK Parliament—the Procurement Bill. This second Bill also requires the legislative consent of the Senedd. And a letter of consent memorandum to that Bill has already been laid with the Senedd and will of course be the subject of its own debate in due course. As I've said, despite the title, the function of the Bill is narrow.
The changes needed to our procurement system as a result of the Australia and New Zealand free trade agreements are small and technical in nature and they were discussed fully with officials before they were tabled during negotiations. I know some Members have broader opinions on these trade deals, but with regards to the changes needed in respect of procurement I have no issues of concern. My concerns for this Bill lie solely in the nature of the powers it contains. Despite extensive discussions at both ministerial and official level, the UK Government has continued to resist our calls for equivalent powers to be included on the face of the Bill and is unwilling to grant equivalent or concurrent plus powers.
The UK Government has committed to consult with devolved Governments before using the powers, but, as the debate at the Second Reading of the House of Lords heard, devolved matters are not just matters for consultation. We believe that there is no reason why equivalent or concurrent plus powers, at the very least, could not have been included in this Bill. The current approach of the UK Government is not consistent with the principle of devolution, and, as the First Minister and the Counsel General have made clear, equivalent powers should be the default when issues affecting devolution arise.
Whilst I do have concerns around some of the content of these agreements, as we've discussed before, and its potential impact on some of the sectors, we have made it clear to the UK Government that we would not seek to hold up or impede the implementation of the negotiated trade agreements. The Welsh Government is fully committed to playing its part in complying with the obligations of such international agreements.
This is the second Bill introduced specifically to implement the UK Government's new trade policy following our departure from the EU. In the case of the original Trade Bill, we did recommend that Senedd consent be granted. However, that Bill related purely to the roll-over of existing trade deals that we were party to as a member of the EU. We were led to believe at the time by the UK Government that this would not set a precedent for future legislation. We do not wish for this perceived precedent continue in the case of this Bill. I know that this concern is shared by Legislation, Justice and Constitution committee. The committee wrote to me in July 2022 to outline their concerns that the approach taken to the use of concurrent powers in this Bill risks setting a precedent for future legislation and for trade agreements. I agree with their assessment. We do not expect there to be any amendments to the Bill that would include a change to the concurrent powers proposed. I'm grateful to the committee for their ongoing work scrutinising the LCM and the Bill and ask Members to support the Government recommendation and, on the vote, to withhold consent.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. We laid our report on this LCM on 23 November 2022. We drew two conclusions and made three recommendations, and we’re very grateful to the Minister for his response to our report. As the Minister has said, the Bill amends procurement legislation to meet the requirements of the UK-Australia and UK-New Zealand free trade agreements, but is to be repealed by the UK Government's Procurement Bill, should that Bill be enacted.
Now, we agreed with the Welsh Government's assessment that all the clauses and Schedules listed in the memorandum fall within a purpose within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as described in Standing Order 29. However, we also recommended that Senedd's consent should also be sought for clause 4 and paragraph 4 of Schedule 2. The Minister did not accept our view on clause 4, because he maintains it is a technical provision. However, just to point out, on that specific point, there is a consent memorandum currently laid before the Senedd for the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, which does indeed list so-called technical clauses as clauses requiring the Senedd's consent. So, we remain of the view that consent for such clauses should be required. It's a point of disagreement.
In response to a question we raised, the Minister told us that he shared our concerns, as he’s just referred to in his comments, about the increased use of concurrent powers in UK Bills. He also told us that, at the very least, the Welsh Government would need concurrent plus powers being included in the TANZ Bill, as I'll refer to it, before we could recommend the Senedd gives its consent. Now, we believe the inclusion of powers for the Welsh Ministers in the TANZ Bill equivalent to those provided to the UK Ministers would indeed be the best available option. However, to overcome the issue of the inclusion of concurrent powers in the Bill, we did explore with the Minister why he could not bring forward a Bill equivalent to the UK Government's Bill before the Senedd. Further, given the Minister’s reasoning that the legislation was time critical—and we understand that—we asked what the barriers were to seeking to introduce an emergency Bill to this Senedd.
Now, given the deadline to which the UK Government is working, the Minister told us that he didn't believe that there was sufficient time available to bring forward an emergency Bill, or that this would be a proportionate approach given the scope of the provisions in this legislation. But it takes us to a matter of principle for our committee. We don't consider it appropriate for Welsh Government to use arguments—as it did indeed in this memorandum—relating to the Senedd's timetable for scrutiny, or the capacity, in order to justify using a UK Bill to legislate in a devolved area. This is a point we've made several times before. We stick by it. We reiterate that point today.
The Minister also told us that a Senedd Bill would not, of itself, overcome the inclusion of concurrent powers in the TANZBill, because a Senedd Bill could not prevent the TANZ Bill giving powers to UK Ministers to implement legislative changes in Wales. And the Minister told us this could therefore lead to concurrent powers, albeit contained in different Acts.
However, this leads me on to another really important point of principle, which I wish to highlight again, which this committee stands on. By pursuing a separate Welsh Bill, the Welsh Ministers, subject to the views of this Senedd, would have been able to create the powers it needs, rather than having to negotiate for their inclusion in the TANZ Bill. And whilst we do accept that a Welsh Bill could not prevent the TANZ Bill giving powers to UK Ministers to implement legislative changes in Wales, it would, however, change the nature of the conversation between Governments. In addition, and significantly, it would also change the nature of the question put to this Senedd on the matter of consent.Now, this issue may actually be of little consequence, given the intended repeal of the TANZ Bill should it be enacted, but, as a point of principle, it remains valid, so we draw it to the attention of the Senedd.
And, finally, on the third recommendation, we're really grateful for the response we received in December, noting that meetings were being held with the UK Government to ensure dialogue continued about the disagreements on the Bill. Now that we're at the point of the debate, though, we would have found it helpful—I don't know if the Minister can touch on this as a response—in advance of today's proceedings, to learn whether those issues he referred to about the concurrent powers had been resolved to the Minister's satisfaction. We hear today that this is not the case indeed.
So, Minister, just two questions I wonder if you could refer to in your remarks there. First of all, what are the implications today if the Senedd does refuse consent, and, has the Minister reflected at all on the decision not to bring forward his own Bill as an alternative route? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Peter Fox AS: The Welsh Conservative group will be supporting the LCM today. I know that the Senedd has discussed the merits of the Australia and New Zealand free trade agreement on a number of occasions. And, as the Minister stated, the LCM relates to a Bill that ensures that relevant measures are introduced so that the trade agreement can be implemented. As I understand, Welsh Government officials have had discussions with UK Government officials around the changes required to the procurement chapters, which is to be welcomed, although I do note that they were not involved in the development of the Bill itself. As such, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would be interested to ask the Minister more broadly about what changes were required to Welsh procurement rules. And, how does the Minister envisage using the powers provided for within the Bill to the Welsh Government in future years?
Deputy Presiding Officer, we know that the Minister is currently opposing consent due to the inclusion of concurrent powers in clause 1, as he's already explained. The Minister's letter to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, though, dated 14 December, states that he and his officials recently held a constructive meeting with Nigel Huddleston, the Minister for International Trade, and that it had been agreed that more meetings would be held about the Bill. Therefore, can I ask the Minister whether the issues around the use of concurrent powers were raised in that meeting, whether the Minister for International Trade provided any additional justification for its inclusion, and was the Minister more receptive to finding a solution that was acceptable to both Governments?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Well, this Senedd should not support this LCM in any way. Supporting this LCM would be a complete betrayal of Welsh farmers, and would leave our agricultural sector vulnerable to the risk of being undermined completely by red meat producers on the other side of the world.
The Government has several progressive policies, such as ambitious environmental targets and local procurement policies, never mind legislation for future generations, to name a few. Enabling this LCM today would run counter to all of these policies. Speaking to butchers in Wales, there has been a significant increase in the lamb coming here from Aotearoa already, and the result of this is evident today, as we see that the price of lamb is significantly lower than it was a year ago. This agreement is about to lead to a significant fall in the GVA of Welsh agriculture—£50 million, according to the estimates of the Farmers Union of Wales, not to mention the millions that have been lost as the Westminster Government fail to keep their word about agricultural compensation following Brexit.
Indeed, the farmers that I speak to in Australia and Aotearoa can't believe their luck that the United Kingdom has agreed to a deal that is so one-sided in their favour. Our small farmers are the backbone of our rural economy in Wales—that's what Samuel Kurtz said last night. I agree with him completely. But more than that, they're essential to the continuity of the language and our culture. We can't turn our backs on them. We have to support the sector and ensure that small farms in Wales continue to punctuate our glorious landscapes in Wales as they protect and nurture our land. We can't betray our farmers by showing any kind of support for the agreement between the United Kingdom and Australia and Aotearoa. So, will the Government bring its own Bill forward? Thank you very much.

Alun Davies AC: I welcome very much the Minister's speech this evening in asking and recommending that this Senedd does not give consent to this LCM. I think we should be doing that for two reasons: for the constitutional reasons, but also for policy reasons. I agree with my friend, the Chair of our committee. I keep forgetting the name of the committee, but it's a very good committee. [Laughter.] Legislation, justice and constitution. I do wish—. I'm far better with single words than acronyms, but it's a very good—[Interruption.] It might be my age. It's more likely to be other things, but we won't go there.
So, I'm very grateful to him, and I do agree with the points he makes about concurrent powers and the points he makes about the Welsh Government bringing forward its own legislation. But I think there's a more fundamental point at play with this LCM, and that is the nature of parliamentary scrutiny. The Parliaments, wherever you happen to be, in Westminster, here, Holyrood, or wherever, exist to scrutinise the actions of the Executive, and that is a key, fundamental part of our role. Last night in Westminster, legislation was passed that allows Ministers to legislate. That should never happen, and as a legislature, we should never allow that to happen. We should never allow Welsh Ministers the right to legislate in our name, and it shouldn't happen in Westminster either. But what this does is to enable Westminster Ministers to negotiate, without parliamentary scrutiny, trade deals that will have a profound effect on the livelihoods of people, wherever they happen to be in the United Kingdom. That should be subject to parliamentary control and parliamentary scrutiny before the negotiations start, and not simply a Bill that will be whipped through late at night, after the negotiations have concluded. We need to be able to say, very, very clearly, that all deals of this sort should be subject to clear parliamentary scrutiny at all stages, and we should all, on all sides of the Chamber, agree with that, because you on the Conservative benches insist on scrutinising Welsh Ministers. I welcome your scrutiny. I welcome that scrutiny. But I want to see the same scrutiny in London as we have here.
The second issue is that of policy, and the points that have already been made are very true and fair. What really worries me about this legislation is that it demonstrates that the UK Government are turning their backs on the farming community and embracing the money people in the City of London. This might be free trade, but it's not fair trade, and what we need are trade treaties that are hard-wired with our values. A few years ago, I met in Brussels the New Zealand ambassador to the EU and to Brussels. We had a long conversation about the nature of trade agreements, and he was very clear: trade agreements are not simply about trade. They're about who we are and what our contribution to the world is going to be. He spoke at length about New Zealand's values—the values of the Government of New Zealand—informing what they wanted to do and what sort of deals they were searching for when they were negotiating. And what we've got here is a UK Government that doesn't seem to have any values except making money for their friends in the City of London, and it doesn't matter who suffers as a consequence of that. And the sheep farmers of Wales deserve better than that. They deserve better than that, because they have farmed these hills and mountains for generations. It's one of the toughest jobs in this country today, and they deserve the support of people who say they speak on their behalf. And in this treaty, they've been let down and let down badly, and backs have been turned by a Government more interested in simply placating Tory donors. [Interruption.] I've said enough about you, so I should take an intervention.

Darren Millar AC: I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. Look, whenever a trade deal is negotiated, there are always going to be competing interests within each nation that is doing the negotiations, both pros and cons. What the UK Government has to do is to try to get the best possible deal for the United Kingdom as a whole, as I would expect the Welsh Government would try to do if it was having to negotiate—it would try to get the best deal for Wales as a whole, and that may be of advantage to some parts to Wales and a disadvantage to others. I think the reality is that this is a trade deal that is a good trade deal, which we should all be supporting in the interests of the whole of the UK. And of course it is part and parcel—[Interruption.]

Alun Davies AC: Oh, come on, he's trying to defend the UK Government; give him a chance. [Laughter.]

Darren Millar AC: Just one further point, if I may, because I think this is an interesting discussion. This is part and parcel of unlocking opportunities into wider trade partnerships with blocs in the Asia-Pacific area.

Alun Davies AC: Well, you've certainly made my case about the need for parliamentary scrutiny, if nothing else. And I don't disagree with you, as it happens, Darren. It's right and proper that government is about choosing and making choices, and the point that I make is that the UK Government has chosen the money-makers in the City of London over the farmers of Wales, and that is exactly the point I'm making. And, in doing so, they've spoken more about themselves than the values of people, whether those people and those farmers are in Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland. And for that reason, this Parliament, and as people who seek to represent the people of Wales, we should say 'no'.

I call on the Minister for Economy to reply.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank Members for all of the various comments and questions that have been raised in the debate.
On the policy through the different trade deals, our disagreement with the UK Government is clear. And I respect and understand why both Mabon ap Gwynfor and Alun Davies made comments about that; that's not really the point in the sense of the vote today on the LCM, but we have not resiled from our disagreements on the policies struck by the UK Government. We were clear about that at the time. George Eustice, once he'd left the Government, was also remarkably clear about the drivers for getting this particular deal over the line and the impact that it would have. We understood those tendencies existed within the UK Government, but he did say that in very, very clear terms.
What Members are really being asked to do, as the Conservatives want us to, is to agree that elected Members in this Senedd should vote for powers to be taken away from Welsh Ministers to be put in UK Government hands so that they can simply act for us, and indeed what that does to the scrutiny of this Senedd. And Alun Davies is right about that. I just don't see how Members here could say that this is the right course of action for the UK Government to take in the Bill that it proposes. And it shouldn't be a party-political perspective. It shouldn't be about loyalty to the UK Conservatives, saying that we would celebrate and ask others to do that here.
And the challenge is—and I understand the point made by the LJC committee—alternative powers in different legislation on the same subject, if we were to take an alternative Bill, and we would be into potential ping-pong between different Governments on the same subject. And actually, this Bill should have a relatively short lifespan. We are genuinely concerned, and it's a regular point of conversation with the Counsel General, about how to address the issue. And I'd remind Members of what the First Minister said last week: once Sewel is breached, the next time it becomes easier, and as it carries on and on it is no longer extraordinary. And the concern is that the choice to override devolution, the powers of Welsh Ministers and this Seneddis becoming more normalised and not accidental within this Government. [Interruption.]

The Minister is outside his time.

Vaughan Gething AC: We have constructive conversations with UK Ministers. We don't always end up agreeing and we've not reached agreement on this point. I reiterate, and to conclude: we cannot support consent for this Bill. I therefore ask Members to withhold consent for this Bill and vote against the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Rydym wedi cyrraedd yr amser hwnnw nawr. Oni bai bod tri Aelod yn dymuno i mi ganu cloch, symudaf yn syth i'r cyfnod pleidleisio.

11. Voting Time

Before I go to the vote, I just want to make sure that everybody who's voting remotely has their camera turned on, please, because it is important that we are visible in voting.

We have just one item to vote on this evening, item 10. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Vaughan Gething. Open the vote. Close the vote.

I'm just checking, because last week, we had somebody who didn't manage to log on. Did everybody log on and vote? Okay.

In favour 15, no abstentions, 36 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 10. LCM on the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill: For: 15, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:01.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Luke Fletcher: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Government's work relating to a four-day week?

Mark Drakeford: We recognise the benefits of a shorter working week alongside other forms of flexible working, and we work in social partnership to encourage progressive and fair working practices. Officials discussed these issues with social partners at the joint executive committee of the workforce partnership council on 27 January.

Hefin David: What support is the Welsh Government providing for children with additional learning needs in Caerphilly?

Mark Drakeford: We are in the second year of the three-year planned implementation of our additional learning needs and education tribunal Act. From 2023, annual support for that implementation will be £25.5 million to support system improvement.

Mark Isherwood: How does the First Minister ensure that the social model of disability is implemented by the Welsh Government?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government is committed to applying and embedding the social model of disability throughout everything it does. The work of the disability rights taskforce is based on a common understanding of the social model of disability, human rights and co-production.

Questions to the Economy Minister

Cefin Campbell: What is the Welsh Government doing to address the impact of the end of EU structural funding in Mid and West Wales?

Vaughan Gething: The Welsh Government is working with partners to mitigate as far as possible the consequences of a UK Government replacement scheme that is underfunded, unfit for purpose and is resulting in the closure of programmes that are vital to our economy, and directly costing Wales jobs.

Jayne Bryant: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of employment levels in south-east Wales?

Vaughan Gething: In south-east Wales, 718,000 people were in employment in the 12 months to September 2022, up 12.8 per cent on the same period in 2011. This is a better performance than Wales and UK over the same period.

Vikki Howells: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact on Wales of the UK Government's announcement regarding the latest round of levelling-up funding?

Vaughan Gething: The majority of Welsh bids were rejected by the UK Government as Ministers in London override our devolution settlement and make funding decisions on local projects within our communities. Levelling-up in Wales means failing schemes and unmet promises on EU funds, which are costing jobs and growth.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Altaf Hussain: What action is the Welsh Government taking to increase surgical capacity in the Welsh NHS?

Eluned Morgan: Increasing capacity is a key commitment in our planned care recovery plan. This is supported by an annual recurrent commitment of £170 million, together with £15 million for transformation. In 2022-23, we have seen additional capacity in Cardiff and Vale, Swansea bay and Hywel Dda. All health boards are developing local and regional plans for 2023-24.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing

Joel James: What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government on mental health checks for firearms licensees?

Lynne Neagle: Firearms licensing remains a reserved matter, and police are the licensing authority for firearms. Doctors support this process by confirming to the police any relevant medical conditions, including around mental health, which need to be taken into account in the issuing of a firearms licence.